SJC St. Louis Ruling Questions

[ygo doc]

Here are a few ruling questions that came up multiple times at the St. Louis SJC.

Snipe Hunter and Gadgets
Turn Player discards a gadget monster (or any 1 card) from their Hand to activate Snipe Hunter's effect. They select an opponent's set Spell/Trap card to destroy. They roll the die and it turns up "3". The Non-Turn Player now says he chains the selected set Trap card Ring of Destruction to destroy Snipe Hunter. STOP!

This is an illegal play. Ring of Destruction may not be activated at this point as it is cutting into the resolving effect of Snipe Hunter. If RoD is to be chained, it must be done when Snipe Hunter selects its target, before the die is rolled. This is the same situation as Blowback Dragon. You must chain when these monsters select their targets, not when they resolve their effects to destroy a card.

Secret Barrel counts tokens. Check the FAQ!

Dimension Wall does NOT target. Yes, most duelists used this card like an unlimited Magic Cylinder which does target, but there are differences.

Ultimate Offering
This card may still only be used by the owner.
This card effect may be used more than once during the same turn.
This card may NOT be activated and have a monster summoned during the same chain. Case in point. Turn Player plays Heavy Storm, then chains his face-down Ultimate Offering and chains it again to summon a monster before the card is destroyed. STOP! This is NOT a legal play.

Although, Ultimate Offering can be chained to itself, it MUST be face-up on the field already to do so. In the above chain, you cannot pay 500 Lifepoints and chain UO to itself to summon/set a monster because the activation of UO has not yet resolved. You can't use the effect of Ultimate Offering until it has resolved to the Field.

The following chain is legal. Turn Player activates Heavy Storm. He then chains his FACE-UP Ultimate Offering to summon a gadget monster. This same chain becomes illegal when the Non-Turn Player chains his set Trap Hole to destroy the gadget monster. Ultimate Offering has not yet resolved in the chain to summon a monster, so Trap Hole cannot be activated here. By the time we wait for the chain to resolve, Trap Hole will be destroyed by Heavy Storm.

In a similar but different situation, Turn Player plays Fissure to destroy opponent's monster, then chains his face-up Ultimate Offering to bring out Breaker the Magical Warrior. The Non-Turn Player activates/chains his set Bottomless Trap Hole. STOP! Bottomless Trap Hole cannot be chained here, as no monster has yet been summoned until the chain resolves. Non-Turn Player says "OK", then lets chain resolve and then flips Bottomless Trap Hole to activate it. STOP! This is also illegal. Although, Breaker the Magical Warrior was summoned (and got a counter), the last thing to resolve in the game state was the destruction of a monster by Fissure, NOT the summoning of a >1500 ATK monster. BTH cannot be activated here.

Yes, there were lots of questions regarding Ultimate Offering. You can see why it is limited to one.

Elemental Hero Stratos and Dark Magician of Chaos are simultaneously special summoned from the removed from play area by Dimension Fusion or Return from the Different Dimension. Both monsters have their effects triggered and since they are both optional they go on chain and resolve in sequence determined by owner of effects.

Mind Crush
If the opponent does not have the named card in Hand, they must show their Hand to prove it. If they admit they have the card in Hand and discard it, you may not look at the player's Hand. However, if you suspect the opponent is cheating and has more than 1 copy of the card in Hand, you may call a judge over to check. This is posted on the judge site: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2554#2554.

Treeborn Frog in Standby Phase
Turn Player special summons Treeborn Frog in his Standby Phase and then uses Enemy Controller in his Hand to tribute and seize control of his opponent's face-up monster while still in Standby Phase. Turn Player then special summons Treeborn Frog again to his side of the Field. A very legitimate play. I was asked this question 3 times and the answer is the very 1st ruling posted on the FAQ under Treeborn Frog.

Future Fusion cannot use Fusion substitutes for its effect. Check the FAQ.

The above questions were asked more than once in some form of another, so I hope by posting these, no one will ask these same questions at the next tournament I judge.

doc

 

[Fury]

Gravekeeper's Servant has a continuous effect.
This effect says: "the opponent's monsters get an attack cost".

Horus says: thanks, but I'm unaffected by your continuous effect. So Horus wont get an attack cost.

Silent Swordsman LV5 says the same thing.

And Silent Swordman LV7 says: the effects (including continuous effects) of spells are negated. So no one gets an attack cost.

EDIT: maybe the "effect gives a cost" is troubling you.

But there are other continuous effects that give costs, like Chain Energy. But these are different costs, yet generated the same way.

 

[masterwoo0]

Gravekeeper's Servant has a continuous effect.
This effect says: "the opponent's monsters get an attack cost".

Horus says: thanks, but I'm unaffected by your continuous effect. So Horus wont get an attack cost.

Silent Swordsman LV5 says the same thing.

And Silent Swordman LV7 says: the effects (including continuous effects) of spells are negated. So no one gets an attack cost.

Sending a card from your Deck is no more a Cost than sending a card from your hand with The Creator, or five cards from your Deck with Needle Worm.

 

[Fury]

I have already posted the ruling which prooves that it's a cost so why are you questioning it?
Here again:

When cards like "Gravekeeper's Servant" or "Toll" are active on the field, you must pay each time "Asura Priest" attacks.

I edited my last post a little, too.

EDIT: The Creator has nothing to do with attack costs.
Needle Worm has a trigger effect, that has no cost. Discarding 5 cards is its effect.

The effect of Gravekeeper's Servant is continuous, no activation cost. It gives attack costs to monsters.
Like Chain Energy gives an activation cost to all cards, set cost to all cards, summon costs to all monsters.

EDIT2:

Let's compare GS to other spells with continuous effects, like Banner of Courage.
- both are Continuous Spell Cards.
- both have no activation requirement or activation cost.
- both have only 1 effect, and that effect is continuous
- both effects affect monsters on the field.

Banner of Courage's effect is: all your monsters get "+200 ATK"
GS's effect is: all opp's monsters get "send 1 card from deck to grave else you cant attack (an attack cost)"

The attack cost of a monster is like a property: ATK, DEF, attribute, type, number of Spell Counters, Counters, etc.
This property can be modified by effects (like everything else in this game).

 

[masterwoo0]

I have already posted the ruling which prooves that it's a cost so why are you questioning it?
Here again:I edited my last post a little, too.

EDIT: The Creator has nothing to do with attack costs.
Needle Worm has a trigger effect, that has no cost. Discarding 5 cards is its effect.

The effect of Gravekeeper's Servant is continuous, no activation cost. It gives attack costs to monsters.
Like Chain Energy gives an activation cost to all cards, set cost to all cards, summon costs to all monsters.

What else are you going to use in place of Pay, when you have a card that states it has a 500 life point "Cost". You can't very well Send, Discard, Remove from Play, or Tribute 500 life points, so it makes sense to say that you must pay each time you attack, when you combine both cards in the same Ruling.

I must Discard a Card each time I activate Snipe Hunter's effect. [Cost]. I must discard a card each time my opponent discards a card [Forced Requisition, non Cost].

 

[Fury]

I dont know any card where pay is not a cost, but if you have one please say so. This game is all about exceptions.

The wording of GS is very specific:

Unless your opponent sends 1 card from the top of his/her Deck to the Graveyard, he/she cannot declare an attack.

It matches the wording of Panther Warrior:

This card cannot attack unless you Tribute 1 monster on your side of the field.

It is true that the wording of GS is inaccurate. Like SORL was. It affects monsters not players. But aside from that they are the same.

Forced Requisition forces the opponent to do something when I do something. It doesnt give any requirements or costs to the opponent's own actions. However Chain Energy does.

EDIT:
Toll and GS are very similar, that's why they are always(!) mentioned together. If one is a cost the other is as well. Can you agree to that?

And that Toll is a cost is not only fairly obvious, but it is said explicitly in its rulings.

 

[Cropz]

That "Cost", as masterwoo0 said, is generated by the card's effect, my point refered to activation costs, obviously enough (maybe not really).

 

[Tkwiget]

Fury, it isn't good practice to compare Monster Effects with that of Spell/Trap Effects. They often can function extremely different from one another, yet appear to function very similarly.

Gravekeeper's Servant, Panther Warrior, and Dark Elf all have a requirement in order to work.

Dark Elf requires you to have 1000 life points. It's a requirement in order to attack and this effect does get negated by Skill Drain. Same goes for Panther Warrior.

Gravekeeper's Servant you did try very hard to explain but you missed one key detail IMO.

If your opponent has no cards left in his/her Deck, he/she cannot declare an attack while this card is on your side of the field.
[Re: Asura Priest] When cards like "Gravekeeper's Servant" or "Toll" are active on the field, you must pay each time "Asura Priest" attacks.
The ruling right above the one you keep posting up. These cards create requirements for the player to meet in order for them to get used. They can all be negated by respective cards. Such as if Imperial Order is active on the field you would not discard for Gravekeeper's Servant because it's an effect and not a cost.

------------------------------

Now for the Card Trooper discussion.

I'm a little confused on something. John, are you saying that you believe Card Trooper doesn't have a cost? I've read the entire thread and that's what I'm confused about. =/

 

[Fury]

I didnt miss anything.

Panther Warrior has an attack cost of "tribute 1 monster". If you dont have it, you cant attack.

Toll gives an attack cost of 500 LP. If you dont have it, you cant attack.

GS also gives an attack cost. If you cant pay it, you cant attack. It's exactly the same.

There is no extra requirement here. Only the same old basic rules. Paying a cost had always these rules. You cant suicide with LP, and if you dont have the cards required for the cost, then you cant do your thing.

 

[ygo doc]

I didnt miss anything.

Panther Warrior has an attack cost of "tribute 1 monster". If you dont have it, you cant attack.

Toll gives an attack cost of 500 LP. If you dont have it, you cant attack.

GS also gives an attack cost. If you cant pay it, you cant attack. It's exactly the same.

There is no extra requirement here. Only the same old basic rules. Paying a cost had always these rules. You cant suicide with LP, and if you dont have the cards required for the cost, then you cant do your thing.

According to the Advance Play FAQ, there are 3 TYPES OF COSTS:

1. ACTIVATION COST - These are paid when you activate (play) a card. Activation costs cannot be negated by cards that negate the effect of a card.

2. MAINTENANCE COST - Costs that are paid in order to keep a card on the field. EX: Imperial Order, Messenger of Peace, Archfiend monsters. "Maintenance" costs cannot be negated by card effects that negate the effects of another card.

3. NON-MAINTENANCE COST - Examples include paying Life Points to attack with "Dark Elf", "Jirai Gumo", or Toon Monsters. These are not "maintenance" costs because they are not costs that are paid to keep the card on the field. These costs are negated when the card's effect is negated. So if "Skill Drain" is active, for example, you do not have to pay to attack with "Dark Elf", "Jirai Gumo", or a Toon Monster.

Refer to the Advance Play FAQ here: http://www.upperdeckentertainment.com/yugioh/en/gameplay/faqs/advancedgameplay/default.aspx.

doc

P.S. for Card Trooper, we are referring to 3. Non-Maintenance Cost.

 

[Fury]

Using the term "attack cost" or "non-maintenance cost" doesnt make much of a difference - since the only examples they give are attack costs. It is still a cost. What the FAQ says is in line with what I said.

Being a cost means GS and Macro Cosmos prevent your opponent's monsters from attacking. Because you cant pay the cost.

EDIT: Heh? How can Card Trooper be nr. 3? It's nr. 1. You pay the cost for activating its effect.

 

[masterwoo0]

Being a cost means GS and Macro Cosmos prevent your opponent's monsters from attacking. Because you cant pay the cost.

No. It means you can't meet the requirement of the effect. If you have one Light monster in your Graveyard, and two Aqua, can you remove "one light and one aqua" to Special Summon Chaos Sorcerer? No, because you havent met the requirement, nor the cost.

If you have 0 cards in your Deck, can you activate Pot of Greed? It's not a Cost to have 2 cards, but it is a requirement that you have cards remaining in your Deck to activate it.

If you do not have any cards in hand, and your opponent has 0 cards as well, can you play Card Destruction? No, because the requirement is not met for activation.

The same can be said for Gravekeeper's Servant, and Toll.

 

[Fury]

All costs imply requirements = if you cant pay you cant activate/use it.

Confiscation has a 1000 LP activation cost. If you dont have 1001 LP, you cant play it. It is an activation requirement. But an indirect one. Implied by the cost.

Chaos Sorcerer needs certain monsters removed as a summon cost. If you cant remove those you cant summon him.

Most effects also imply requirements. Like Pot of Greed. Or Smashing Ground requires 1 face-up monster on the opponent's field. These are requirements to execute their effects. But this is mostly true only for effects that activate.

The effects of Toll and GS are continuous. You dont activate them. The simly apply to all monsters all the time.

Continuous effects dont activate, so they dont have activation requirements. And what kind of execution requirement could Toll have? I mean what do you think the card actually does?