Skill Drain & Toon Gemini Elf
- Thread starter anthonyj
- Start date
Hmm. I had never thought of 'lingering effect'. Somehow I envisioned conditions being something of a different animal. If it is still a form of effect, that would explain its susceptibility to Skill Drain.
But, just to make sure I understand clearly, What would happen if:
Magical Scientist is face up and its summoning effect is activated to bring out a Fusion Monster (lets say TER, since Ryu Senshi causes other problems). Skill Drain is activated later in the turn (either chained to TER's effect or otherwise. Doesnt really bear on my point).
A: During the End Phase of the turn, does the Fusion Monster return to the Fusion deck while Skill Drain is active?
B: If Skill Drain is removed from the field before the End Phase of the same turn, will the Fusion Monster return to the Fusion Deck?
But, just to make sure I understand clearly, What would happen if:
Magical Scientist is face up and its summoning effect is activated to bring out a Fusion Monster (lets say TER, since Ryu Senshi causes other problems). Skill Drain is activated later in the turn (either chained to TER's effect or otherwise. Doesnt really bear on my point).
A: During the End Phase of the turn, does the Fusion Monster return to the Fusion deck while Skill Drain is active?
B: If Skill Drain is removed from the field before the End Phase of the same turn, will the Fusion Monster return to the Fusion Deck?
John Danker
Administrator
That one is already answered in the rulings for Magical Scientist....
If "Skill Drain" is activated after a Fusion Monster is Special Summoned with "Magical Scientist", the effect of "Magical Scientist" (that makes the Fusion Monster unable to attack directly and have to go back to the Fusion Deck) has been applied already, and is not negated, so the Special Summoned Fusion Monster still cannot attack directly and must go back to the Fusion Deck
If "Skill Drain" is activated after a Fusion Monster is Special Summoned with "Magical Scientist", the effect of "Magical Scientist" (that makes the Fusion Monster unable to attack directly and have to go back to the Fusion Deck) has been applied already, and is not negated, so the Special Summoned Fusion Monster still cannot attack directly and must go back to the Fusion Deck
...and the further explain the Skill Drain vs. MS ruling...
The reason Skill Drain doesn't negate the "condition" on the Fusion is because it was placed by an outside effect.
Skill Drain in theory only negates effects generated internally by the Effect Monster itself. Even further, it really could literally state "negate all effect text of Effect Monsters" because thats really what it does (in 99% of the cases).
The "condition" on Toon Gemini Elf is internal, and would be negated by Skill Drain whether it is active before or after.
A true "condition" is a restriction or special instruction on the card itself that affects the cards' playability. The "cannot attack" restriction of TGE is not really a true condition, but a lingering effect.
The reason Skill Drain doesn't negate the "condition" on the Fusion is because it was placed by an outside effect.
Skill Drain in theory only negates effects generated internally by the Effect Monster itself. Even further, it really could literally state "negate all effect text of Effect Monsters" because thats really what it does (in 99% of the cases).
The "condition" on Toon Gemini Elf is internal, and would be negated by Skill Drain whether it is active before or after.
A true "condition" is a restriction or special instruction on the card itself that affects the cards' playability. The "cannot attack" restriction of TGE is not really a true condition, but a lingering effect.
Where is the ruling on Homunculus, if you're so sure about that?anthonyj said:
As it turns out, Fusilier is neither triggered nor continuous. It is a "rule effect". Like Kaiser Seahorse.
Oh, and saying that Fusilier Dragon isn't continuous because Book of Moon can erase it: Would not Mimic LV3 forget that it was summoned by Mimic LV1's effect if it was flipped face-down?
To add to that: Slate Warrior's Flip Effect that increases his ATK and DEF by 500 is considered continuous. At least it used to be.
I see...Digital Jedi said:
Crap, I never thought it would happen. I got caught in the trap that is Skill Drain.
Okay, so I have to make two reversals in a single topic. Homunculus can be negated by Skill Drain and Fusilier is not continuous. But FUSILIER IS NOT A TRIGGER!
Oh, by the way, Slate Warrior isn't considered continuous. After a little more research (which I'm doing in lieu of a 3-page English paper (it may not be hard for you, but it's he** for me to even work up the motivation to start) for summer school), it seems that ANY self-affecting monster's effect can be negated. But not effects by other monsters. Strange.
"¢ If your opponent uses "Bazoo the Soul-Eater"'s effect to increase its ATK, and you use "Skill Drain", "Bazoo the Soul-Eater"'s ATK returns to normal, even if "Skill Drain" is destroyed after resolving. If "Skill Drain" is negating "Bazoo the Soul-Eater"'s effect, you can still pay the cost and remove monsters in your Graveyard from play, but "Bazoo the Soul-Eater"'s ATK will not increase.
In other words, this ruling is not strictly true:
"¢ "Skill Drain" will not affect lingering effects or conditions that are left over from a previous effect. For example, if you Special Summon a Fusion Monster with "Summoner of Illusions", and then "Skill Drain" is activated afterwards, the Fusion Monster is still destroyed in the End Phase. If you Special Summon a Fusion Monster with "Magical Scientist", and then "Skill Drain" is activated, the Fusion Monster cannot attack your opponent's Life Points directly, and is returned to the Fusion Deck at the end of the turn.
Okay, now the NEW question would be: Does Dark Jeroid's effect get negated when it is used on itself?
Raijinili said:
Would it be destroyed by Jowgen the Spiritualist's after it has been flipped face-down? Yes. It doesn't forget how it was summoned.
As for calling it a Trigger, I apologize for bad terminology. I was trying to come up with a proper term for the fact that the controller chooses to use its effect and summon it at half strength. This effect is only active as long as Fusilier is face up and the effect is removed as soon as Skill Drain, Book of Moon, removed from play etc. happens. So it certainly would not be a continuous effect.
Jedi:
How is Slate Warrior's Flip effect continuous?
I don't know. I didn't think it was either. Its on the judges list. I'll have to post it later. Somethings hijacked my browser and I have a bunch of crud running trying to delete it. Computer is slow.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
No it wouldn't remember how it was summoned. It doesn't remember being levelled up.anthonyj said:
We keep track of how a monster was brought to the field:
You can flip summon a monster repeatedly, but jowgen doesn't consider that, it looks at how the other monster was brought to the field, and one of those methods is a special summon.
Flip a monster face-down, jowgen doesn't care. Remove a special summoned monster with Interdimensional Matter Transporter and jowgen loses track.
Oddly enough, it was John Danker who asked this question
This is refering to Slate Warriors reduction effect. Don't see why it wouldn't apply to his increase effect as well.
Slate Warrior's ATK/DEF boost and reduction are continuous in nature once they actually resolve to the monster, same as Rope of Life.
The tricky part is that it is Triggered into play.
Remember, there is a difference between "how" an effect activates and "what" effect resolves from it.
The tricky part is that it is Triggered into play.
Remember, there is a difference between "how" an effect activates and "what" effect resolves from it.
Slate Warrior's boost for his Flip effect will be negated by Skill Drain, his reduction of another monster wouldn't be affected by Skill Drain. (Just to clarify for anyone reading this thread and getting a bit confused.) Yes, Slate Warrior's boosting and reducing effects are considered continuous in that if something like Megamorph is equipped to the monster affected, the boost or reduction will then add to or subtract from the new ATK calculated by Megamorph.
Since when do people think that Skill Drain cannot remove "conditions" or as i think of them "effects that create restrictions"...?
Once Skill Drain removes a restriction it is gone permanently unless re-applied again through the same method. In this case, taking the monster off the field (or face-down) and re-Summoning it.
This is very similar to Ultimate Obedient Fiend.
This should not be an "Unsolved Mystery"
Once Skill Drain removes a restriction it is gone permanently unless re-applied again through the same method. In this case, taking the monster off the field (or face-down) and re-Summoning it.
This is very similar to Ultimate Obedient Fiend.
This should not be an "Unsolved Mystery"
John Danker
Administrator
This was submitted to the judge's list after much discussion, it's remained unanswered "officially" Does that mean it can't be ruled on? Of course not, we can always rule on things based on what we know of mechanics and similar cards....however, this is Yugioh where rules and mechanics are made to be broken!
Well, i guess specifically, there is no "official" ruling, but many questions have to be answered based in extrapolation.
This one seems pretty straight forward to me, but nothing wrong with waiting for an answer from the List.
YGO... there are rules and mechaincs? where?... must have missed the post on that one...
This one seems pretty straight forward to me, but nothing wrong with waiting for an answer from the List.
YGO... there are rules and mechaincs? where?... must have missed the post on that one...
novastar said:
But if Skill Drain leaves the field Ultimate Obedient Fiend can no longer declare an attack if there are any other cards on your side of the field or in your hand. So that is a restriction that is continuously looking for conditions to be met.
The question goes to the nature of the restriction whether it would reapply itself or not. I don't think you can do simple extraction to answer this one definitively. Thus it gets asked and we wait for final clarification.
daivahataka
Gold Member
*pitches a tent and lights a fire, then begins passing round moonshine and marshmellows since we're going to be stuck waiting here a while.*novastar said: