Snatch Steal Effect

B

Blackscorp

Poison?... Loaded!!
Is the effect of Snatch Steal a continuous efect or a One-Shot effect??

Ex. 1.

If I take control of an opponent monster with Snatch Steal and the opponent later activates Imperial Order, will the monster return to my opponent Side?? if so, what happens when Imperial Order is Destroyed/Removed, will it return to my side again???

Ex. 2.

If I take control of an opponent monster with Snatch Steal and the opponent activate Remove Brainwashing and the monster return return to my opponent Side, What happens when Remove Brainwashing is Destroyed/Removed, will the monster to my side again???


Ex. 3.

If I take control of an opponent monster with Snatch Steal and then i play Creatur Swap and give my opponent the equiped monster, Will the equiped monster return to my side after Creature Swap resolve???

As far as I remember most (if not all) Equip Spell Cards have continuous effects.

I have checked the rules in the official page and in the card registry but i just got confused my self, any help in this would be very appreciated.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
Blackscorp said:
Thanks John, it is very clear now and I completely agree with you; But..

Would it be safe to assume that when Imperial Order leaves the field ALL Equip Spell Cards that are face-up on the field RE-EQUIP themself to the monster they where equiped to?

My point is:
Why the monster equiped with Snatch Steal returns when Imperial Order leaves the field if the effect od Snatch Steal isn't a continuos one??
Click to expand...

When Imperial Order is on the field Equips remain equipted...their effect is just negated until Imperial Order leaves the field. (maintanice costs are not negated though)

The difference that is hard to understand is that with Creature Swap and Remove Brainwashing they specifically state a change of control. Imperial Order states no such change of control, only that a spell card's effect is negated while Imperial Order is face up on the field.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The actual mechanic of "equipping" is a function of the card itself and completely seperate from the effect of the card. This is why Imperial Order cannot negate/prevent/stop an Equip Spell Card from actually attaching to it's intended target.

The effect of Snatch Steal is indeed continuous, and is a change of control of the monster based on that continuous effect being active.

Effects such as Creature Swap are not continuous, but are One-Shot Modifiers that actually make a "permanent" switch of the controller of the monster.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
John Danker said:
Lets take a look at the card text from Snatch Steal...

Take control of a monster on your opponent's side of the field that is equipped with this card. Increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000 points during each of his/her Standby Phases.

It doesn't say....

"Take and keep control of a monster on your opponent's side of the field that is equipped with this card as long as it remains equiped with this card regardless of other card effects......."

It is, however, a equip. card so it will stay equip. regardless of who controls the monster Snatch Steal is equip. to. The 1000 lp gain continues as long as Snatch Steal is equip.

I know this is a tough one to stomach. I'm still trying to convince myself in some respects!
Click to expand...
The interpretation of Snatch Steal as i see it is:

"Attach [this_equip] to target opponent's monster, take control of [that] monster"

It is a continuous effect that is only active as long as the Equip is attached.

Naturally it is still a Spell Card, and it's effect can be negated by effects that negate Spell Cards. (unless there is a condition that specifically states that ie. Spiritualism)

As far as Remove Brainwashing vs. Snatch Steal, it would seen to me, that control would return back to the controller of Snatch Steal once it leaves the Field. As Snatch Steal is a continuous effect, and would assume control again.

Similar to having both Final Attack Orders and Level Limit - Area B active at the same time. You resolve them in Timestamp order, and once one leaves, the other takes over.

Which brings up another Question for me, could the resolution of these depend on Timestamp?... possibly. Interesting indeed.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
novastar said:
Effects such as Creature Swap are not continuous, but are One-Shot Modifiers that actually make a "permanent" switch of the controller of the monster.
Click to expand...

You got the point. Are this modifiers are permanente? Yes,no, Why?


We all go by the rule, but in the long run i seans a bit contradictory.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
novastar said:
As far as Remove Brainwashing vs. Snatch Steal, it would seen to me, that control would return back to the controller of Snatch Steal once it leaves the Field. As Snatch Steal is a continuous effect, and would assume control again.
Click to expand...

The subject of a monster switching back to the controler of Snatch Steal seemed pretty cut and dry to me at first glace too novastar. When we look at the ruling for Creature Swap though we know that when Creature Swap resolves (if one Creature Swaps a monster eqip. w/ Snatch Steal) the monster doesn't return to the side of the field Snatch Steal is on.

When we look at the ruling with Remove Brainwashing it states:

If "Remove Brainwashing" is destroyed, control does not revert again, so if I activate "Change of Heart" and my opponent chains "Remove Brainwashing", control of the monster comes to me and then reverts to my opponent. Then, later in the turn, if "Remove Brainwashing" is destroyed with "Heavy Storm", control does not revert back to me and remains with the original owner. (The same for "Creature Swap", etc.)

Since the card text for Creature Swap states:

Both players select 1 monster from their respective sides of the field and switch control of those monsters with each other. The selected monsters cannot change their battle positions this turn.

And the card text for Remove Brainwashing states:

As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the control of all monsters on the field returns to the original owners

Both Creature Swap and Remove Brainwashing tell us to switch control. The confusing part about Remove Brainwashing is that it's card text says, "As long as this card remains face-up on the field"¦.." and then it's ruling says that, "Then, later in the turn, if "Remove Brainwashing" is destroyed with "Heavy Storm", control does not revert back to me and remains with the original owner. (The same for "Creature Swap", etc.)

So the card text indicates that Remove Brainwashing's effect is only good when it's face up on the field and it's ruling seems to state that control does not switch back when it's destroyed"¦..or am I not seeing something obvious here that makes this less confusing?

Then they throw in the phrase, "(The same for "Creature Swap", etc.) Well, which cards are "etc."? Is Snatch Steal one of the, "etc." cards?

This card appears to need to be more clearly defined, at least in my eyes.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
chaosruler said:
novastar or any other skilled entity - wouldn't Imperial Order in essence stop Premature Burial from attaching to its target though??:confused:
Click to expand...

Im going to change my name to Un skilled entity.... lol.... Imperial Order just negates the Effect. So since Premature Burials Effect is to bring a monster out of the graveyard, then equip itself.... it cannot get the monster out of the graveyard in the first place with Imperial Order on the field. IT DOES however, pay the cost of 800 to activate the card. Now if Premature is already equipped to a monster, then Imperial Order is activated, the Premature Burial stays equipped, but since the effect is negated, if it is destroyed somehow, the monster doesnt die. Make sense?? So with Snatch Steal, it sort of the same. The effect is negated so the control of the monster reverts back to the previous controller, but it still stays equipped cuz it IS equipped to the monster, just negated.
As for the other two examples, John Covered that quite nicely... and Nova...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
So the card text indicates that Remove Brainwashing's effect is only good when it's face up on the field and it's ruling seems to state that control does not switch back when it's destroyed"¦..or am I not seeing something obvious here that makes this less confusing?

Then they throw in the phrase, "(The same for "Creature Swap", etc.) Well, which cards are "etc."? Is Snatch Steal one of the, "etc." cards?

This card appears to need to be more clearly defined, at least in my eyes.
Click to expand...
I agree, we need more clarity.

How Remove Brainwashing interacts with Snatch Steal is unfortunately not defined in the ruling, so it makes this tougher. I go with mechanics in those cases.

In a nutshell, my belief is that Snatch Steal would resume control of the monster once Remove Brainwashing is removed from the Field. The ruling only mentions Change of Heart and Creature Swap, which make sense to me, as those are One-Shot Modifiers and Remove Brainwashing simply nullfies that modification. They are not Continuous Effects.

Snatch Steal is conversely a pure Continuous Effect and you cannot simply remove its effect once it's attached. Negation (ie. Imperial Order) can temperarily shut it off, but it does not permanently stop it, and control will revert back once the negation is stopped.

You actually have to destroy the card itself (Snatch Steal) to permanently remove it's effect.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
chaosruler said:
novastar or any other skilled entity - wouldn't Imperial Order in essence stop Premature Burial from attaching to its target though??:confused:
Click to expand...
Premature Burial is a special kind of Equip.

The monster that is going to attach to it is not face-up on the Field when you activate it. So it attaching to the monster is completely dependant on the effect resolving properly (not negated by IO).

Conversely, Snatch Steal's target is already face-up prior to activation, so it will attach itself, whether IO negates it or not.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
novastar said:
I agree, we need more clarity.

How Remove Brainwashing interacts with Snatch Steal is unfortunately not defined in the ruling, so it makes this tougher. I go with mechanics in those cases.

In a nutshell, my belief is the Snatch Steal would resume control of the monster once Remove Brainwashing is removed from the Field. The ruling only mentions Change of Heart and Creature Swap, which make sense to me, as those are One-Shot Modifiers and Remove Brainwashing simply nullfies that modification. They are not Continuous Effects.

Snatch Steal is conversely a pure Continuous Effect and you cannot simply remove its effect once it's attached. Nagetion (ie. Imperial Order) can temperarily shut it off, but it does not permanently stop it, and control will revert back once the negation is stopped.

You actually have to destroy the card itself (Snatch Steal) to permanently remove it's effect.
Click to expand...

How can we justify Creature Swap vs. Snatch Steal then?
When a monster eqip. w/ Snatch Steal changes control with Creature Swap it doesn't then immediately go back to the side of the field on which Snatch Steal resides.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Upvote 0 Downvote
Not unless the following:

1 the stolen and Creatureswapped monster gets the Snatch Steal destroyed it will return based on the fact that the card that once made it change control is no longer there... (still have to research on this one,but is what i consider is the sequence of events)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
novastar said:
Good point...

It all depends on what kind of effect Remove Brainwashing is. Does it make you the permanent contoller? or does it simply remove any control aspects/conditions placed on any monster while it is face-up?
Click to expand...

That's really hard to say. Which is why I pointed out both the card text of Remove Brainwashing and then it's ruling concerning monsters not returning (such as with Creature Swap, Change of Heart, etc.) They seem to contradict one another.

I think it's time for a question to the judge's list. I'll post it and see if we can get a response.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I would have to say it is because the Effect of Creature Swap is taking place AFTER the resolution of Snatch Steal... The situation with Snatch Steal is already on the field, the monster is there... then when Creature Swap happens YOU CHOOSE to send that monster to their side of the field. Since it is a more permanent change of control (vs. change of heart)... there is no spell card equipped to it to change this. Snatch Steal will stay attached but its control has been done away with .... I guess the most plain way I could put it is this.... Creature Swap happened AFTER Snatch Steal. and it wasnt part of a chain. So it stays where it ends up after the resolution of Creature Swap....

If I have machine monsters on the field, and my Emes the Infinity is equipped with Axe of Despair, he gets a 1000 boost... but if I later activate Limiter Removal... he is still boosted, ... its not equipped, but it still does it. The Axe isnt taken off of him, nor is it negated, but its condition remains too..... I guess this might be a bad example, but what I am saying is... Snatch Steal isnt Unequipped, so it IS still there. The COST is still paid to keep it equipped to that monster till it is destroyed. However, What happens when you use a second Snatch Steal, or Change of heart??? the control switches... but with Change of Heart it specifies that you get that monster back, whereas Creature Swap is a permanent Swap (till it is destroyed anyway), until another condition of control comes up to switch it back...... am i talking in circles? cuz I actually understand what I am saying............
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
John Danker said:
That's really hard to say. Which is why I pointed out both the card text of Remove Brainwashing and then it's ruling concerning monsters not returning (such as with Creature Swap, Change of Heart, etc.) They seem to contradict one another.

I think it's time for a question to the judge's list. I'll post it and see if we can get a response.
Click to expand...
The real issue for me is that Remove Brainwashing vs. Snatch Steal is really 2 continuous effects coliding, which is handled slightly differently than in the case of one-shot deals like Creature Swap.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I would have to say it is because the Effect of Creature Swap is taking place AFTER the resolution of Snatch Steal... The situation with Snatch Steal is already on the field, the monster is there... then when Creature Swap happens YOU CHOOSE to send that monster to their side of the field. Since it is a more permanent change of control (vs. Change of Heart)... there is no spell card equipped to it to change this. Snatch Steal will stay attached but its control has been done away with .... I guess the most plain way I could put it is this.... Creature Swap happened AFTER Snatch Steal. and it wasnt part of a chain. So it stays where it ends up after the resolution of Creature Swap....
Click to expand...
Yes, almost like it places a marker on the monster that says "you belong to me now" and the monster now assumes it belongs to you.

Snatch Steal is more like a rope being tied around the monsters neck and continuously hold the monster there. That is all that maintains control, and once that rope breaks, he's running back to momma...;)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Wait, perhaps this is a case where we're reading too much into the card text again. Lets look at the card text of Remove Brainwashing one more time...

As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the control of all monsters on the field returns to the original owners.

I think we're reading into it that if it's NOT on the field control switches back.

All it's stating is that when Remove Brainwashing is face up on the field control switches to the original owner.

So if it's NOT face up on the field no additional monsters switch control.

If we look at it in this light it's just like continuous Creature Swap for monsters of the owner. When Remove Brainwashing is face up on the field control switches to their original owner. If Remove Brainwashing is not face up on the field any long monsters do not switch to their original owner....but monsters that have when Remove Brainwashing WAS face up on the field that switched to their original owner do not switch back.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
What is it with you guys always forcing me to actually think about things? This whole thread is disrupting my Jedi calming techniques. :(

Now that I got that out of my system, let me take a crack at simplifying the whole issue and we'll see if it makes any sense (to anybody else but me.) I'l start by breaking down some of the control modifiers:

Change of Heart is a one shot modifier, a normal spell that changes control of targeted monster until the end of the End Phase.

Mind Control is also a one shot modifier, a normal spell card that changes control of a targeted monster until the end of the End Phase (with some additional restricions placed on the monster untill the End Phase.)

Creature Swap is a one shot modifier, a normal spell card that switches control of two selected monster (with some additional restrictions placed on the monsters---) . . . and that's all. And I think here is where we get mislead.

I get the impression (from my own way of thinking mainly but from others also ) that we're thinking that once a monster has switched control via Creature Swap that Creature Swap's effect is the reason the monster stays on the opponents side of the field. That ordinarily a monster would revert to its prevoius controller unless the spell card specifically said so. But that's just not the case.

Creature Swap is "missing" the effect of Change of Heart and Mind Control that would place it back on the previous controller's side of the field. Without that last effect Change of Heart and Mind Control would work just like Creature Swap, the monster(s) would simply stay where it was.

That said, what of Snatch Steal?

I think we need to stop looking at Snatch Steal like the normal spell cards that share similarities with it's effect and start looking at it like what it truly is: an Equip Spell Card.

When an Equip is attached to a monster, negation of spell cards on the field will not cause it to be unequipped. I think that's pretty much accepted and undestood. They are continous (generaly speaking) and even if some aren't they force the equipped monster to perform a function that it couldn't ordinarily, even to the point of sometimes overiding the monsters effect. But it's effect can be negated if it's effect pertains to being face-up on the field.

The absolute simpilest way to look at it is this way (excluding all other modifiers):
Negate Rod of Silence - Kay'est and the equipped monster's DEF looses the 500 point modifier.

Negate Scroll of Bewitchment and the equipped monsters attribute returns to his printeds attribute.

Neagte Black Pendant and the equipped monsters ATK looses the 500 point modifier. (The second effect activates in the Graveyard so were not applying that one here.)

Negate Premature Burial and nothing happens to the equipped monster because Premature Burial is just sitting there waiting for itself to be destroyed so it can destroy the equipped monster. Destroy Premature while it's being negated and it can't destroy anything.

Negate Snatch Steal and the monster goes back to it's previous controller. It is not a one shot modifier that has already resolved and left the field. It is not a normal spell that relies on the resolution of it's effect to send a monster here or there. It's a continuous modifier, an Equip Spell Card that either gets it's effect while equipped or it doesn't.

Removing Brainwashing only deals with the actual owner of the monsters on the field. It doesn't care who controls what, as long as the original owner (or creator, in the case of tokens) takes his card back while it's face-up on the field.

I'm starting to agree more and more with Johns statment that we read too much into the card's text sometimes and other times we don't read what's right there in front of us. I hope this makes some kind of sense to others because it clarifies it for me pretty well. At the very least thanks for letting me get it staright in nobody elses head but mine. I'm going to go in the other room now so when my head explodes it doesn't get all over the computer. . . . . . .


:eek:


****BAMF! Splortch****

Aw, man . . .
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
This is some sort of Jedi Mind Trick thingy trying to get us to use common sense... Wassup wit dat ? .... I totally agree however, and that is a very PLAIN ENGLISH was of summing up what we have all been trying to say but havent been able to figure out what each other is saying..... did that make sense?? maybe i should cut out the caffeine... blah blah bbrrrgggbbrr blah blah....
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top