Snatch Steal vs. "re-flippables"

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CraniumX

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Snatch Steal vs. "re-flippables"

Simple question, if an opponent Snatch Steals a face-up (yes, defense position :p ) monster that can flip itself face down, can they flip-summon it that same turn and use its effect?
 
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If you "Snatched" a face-up def Stealt Bird you can use it's effect (if it has not been used before in that turn...) and flip it face-down. If it has not changed it's battle possition then you can flip summon it and you would inflict 1000 points of Damage to your opponent's LP.
 
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when the stach stolen monster is flipped face down game mechanics state the equip spell card is destroyed and control of the monster should revert to the original owner. because the monster is no longer under the control of Snatch Steal.


Please any judge correct me if I am wrong.
 
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The control does not return to the original controller because Snatch Steal was not destroyed or removed from the field by a card effect, but because it lost its target (destroyed by game mechanics). Since it lost its target, there is no monster to return to the original controller. Stealth Bird will remain under the control of the new controller.
 
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I'd do see how this would work. I have never seen anything that states that Snatch Steal have to be destoried in order for its effect to stop working. If that was the case wouldn't using Giant Trunade allow the player who stole the monster to keep control of it?

I thought that the monster would only change control as long as Snatch Steal was active on the field and equipped to the monster. Flipping a stolen Monster face down would mean that Snatch Steal would no longer be equipped to it. Doesn't that mean that control would revert to is owner?

Besides, doesn't flipping a monster face down reset all effect that were active upon it? If this is the case, wouldn't the effect of Snatch Steal be reset, and the monster thus come back under the contol of the original owner?
 
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If you go to the judge list you will find numerous rulings concerning this. If the monster equipped with Snatch Steal is turned face down the monster is reset and does not return to its original owner. Snatch Steal then will not be able to be equipped to a face down monster and goes to the graveyard.
 
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I have been on the Judge's list, and I have not found anything conserning this. I've even tried looking on yugioh-card.com to see if Upper Deck had any information that would be of use. The only thing that I could find was that Snatch Steal was errtaed to say:

"Take control of a monster on your opponent's side of the field that is equipped with this card. Increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000 points during each of his/her Standby Phases."

Please not that Snatch Steal says nothing about needing to be destoried for its effect to stop working, only that it is no longer equipped to the monster. Snatch Steal also says nothing about needing to be removed from the field in order for its effect to end.

So why then if my opponet flips down a stolen monster does it remain on his/her side of the field. Snatch Steal say nothing about needed to return the monster face up, or makes reference to any conditions under which the monster would be returned.

Also, if the monster is reset, then why doesn't it return to is owner upon reseting, since there are no card effects allowing it to be controled by an opponet.

Finally, wouldn't Snatch Steal be destoried if you flipped the monster face down, since it is removed from the field? I ask this, becasue it was ruled that if you tributed a monster that was called with Call of the Haunted, then call would stay on the field meanlessly. If this was the case with Snatch Steal, wouldn't it have to remain face up on the field?
 
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No. EVERY Equip Spell card that loses its target is destroyed by game mechanics, that's why Snatch Steal goes to the graveyard.

The only time that Call of the Haunted is destroyed because of the monster it "hangs" on to, is when the monster is destroyed. Not removed, tributed or send back to the hand.

And about the reset rule of Snatch Steal:

"I know that some might find this question familiar, but ever since the re-formating of the lists and the new individual card FAQs, there's no official answer anywhere so here goes:

If a monster eqipped with Snatch Steal is flipped face-down via Book of Moon/ Tsukuyomi (or any other card effect for that matter) does control of the monster revert back to the original owner?

Thanks,
Curtis Bowles

-------------------------

Answer:

The answer remains the same as it has been for some time.

If a monster with "Snatch Steal" equipped to it is flipped face-down, control of the monster remains with the person that originally used "Snatch Steal" to take control of the monster.

Additionally, "Snatch Steal" is sent to the Graveyard, as it no longer has a legal target (face-down monsters can never be equipped with Equip Spell Cards).

Of course, if "Book of Moon" is chained to a player's activation of "Snatch Steal," then "Book of Moon" would flip the monster face-down, making it an illegal target for "Snatch Steal." As a result, "Snatch Steal" will be sent to the Graveyard due to having no legal target. "

*************************
Steve Okegawa
Official UDE Netrepâ„¢ Rules Coordinator
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG
kenji_blue86@hotmail.com"

from the UDE Judge Board :)
 
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Ok, I can see that we can make a general rule that any card that cannot exist on the field is destoried my game mechanics.

This still does not explain why the monster that was flipped face down after being stolen doesn't come back to its original controler. Just today under "[judge-yu] Strike Ninja Effect Vs Creature Swap And Snatch Steal", it was ruled that if I use Snatch Steal on "Strike Ninja", and then use its effect to remove "Strike Ninja" from the game, then at the end phase of that turn (when Strike Ninja returns to the field) it would first return to the side of the field of the person who activated its effect (the person who stole it), and then it returns to its original controler becasue Snatch Steal (which was destoried by game mechanics), is no longer equipped to it.

If this is true, then why would a monster that wsa stolen, and then flipped face down, not return to its original controler? In both cases, Snatch Steal "lost its target" since it was destoried by game mechanics, and yet in the case of Stirke Ninja, it returns to you, but if it is a face down monster it doesn't. Isn't this a contradiction?
 
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Tonylaudat said:
Ok, I can see that we can make a general rule that any card that cannot exist on the field is destoried my game mechanics.

This still does not explain why the monster that was flipped face down after being stolen doesn't come back to its original controler. Just today under "[judge-yu] Strike Ninja Effect Vs Creature Swap And Snatch Steal", it was ruled that if I use Snatch Steal on "Strike Ninja", and then use its effect to remove "Strike Ninja" from the game, then at the end phase of that turn (when Strike Ninja returns to the field) it would first return to the side of the field of the person who activated its effect (the person who stole it), and then it returns to its original controler becasue Snatch Steal (which was destoried by game mechanics), is no longer equipped to it.

If this is true, then why would a monster that wsa stolen, and then flipped face down, not return to its original controler? In both cases, Snatch Steal "lost its target" since it was destoried by game mechanics, and yet in the case of Stirke Ninja, it returns to you, but if it is a face down monster it doesn't. Isn't this a contradiction?
Click to expand...

It is a game mechanic that monsters that are removed from play have their effects reset. This is why Strike Ninja returns to the owner's side of the field after having returned to the player's side of the field that activated it's effect.

In the case of a monster that was flipped face down after being taken with Snatch Steal....who's monster? How can you tell? It's face down, as far as game mechanics are concerned we don't even know what the monster is, it's lost it's way, therefore, it remains on the side of the field it resides until it goes to the graveyard (which will be the owner's graveyard)
 
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Wow, I knew the whole destruction thing, but I didn't realize that you get to keep the monster you snatched. This does make sense in the grand scheme of things, especially with the face down mechanic.

This also sheds some additional light on Change of Heart and Creature Swap. CoH puts a condition on the monster itself that requires it to return, which will happen regardless of the position it is in. The same applies for Creature Swap, except that the swap as permanent.
 
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Isn't also a game mechanic that also states that a monster that is flipped face down also has its effects reset? This why for example, I can use Book of Moon ot Mirage Knight to keep it from being removed from the game by its own effect after it is involved in a battle.

This would seen to indicate that the effect of Snatch Steal would also be reset in this case. Aslo, I would like to note that current, game mechanics do allow us as players to know what a face down monster is (at least the player controling the monster). I site this under the ruling that allows a player to tribute Kibaman facedown in order to summon a Blue Eyes White Dragon. Aslo, Big Shield Guardna has an effect that allows it to counter a spell that targets it while it is face down. How would this ability work if according to game mechanics, were couldn't tell what it was when it is face down?

Also, Snatch Steal is a equip card that States: "Take control of a monster on your opponent's side of the field that is equipped with this card. Increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000 points during each of his/her Standby Phases."

While it does not litteraly say under what conditions the monter would be returned to its original control, being an equip card means that it only has its effect while equipped to a monster. If that monster is flipped face down, then that effect (which has keeping the monster on the other side of the field), can no longer be applied to that monster. Doesn't this mean that Snatch Steal's effect ends, and it would return to its original controler?

Change of Heart says "Select and control 1 opposing monster (regardless of position) on the field until the end of your turn." From what I can tell, this doesn't put a condition of return on the monster, Change of Heart only says that its effect of switching contol of a monster only last for one turn (at the end of which the effect no longer applies, and the monster is return to the player who originally controlled it).

If Change of Heart put a condition of return on the monster itself, couldn't I then you Change of Heart to take control of a monster and then use Book of Moon to flip it face down, and then get to keep contol of it since the condition (if place upon the monster itself) would be reset, and no longer apply.
 
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There's a differnece between Mirage Knight and Snatch Steal.

If you were to Book of Moon Mirage Knight, it will not be removed from the field during the turn it was involved in battle because it is accounted for it's "own" effect, the effect itself is printed on the card, which is why it would reset being placed face-down.

For Snatch Steal, has it's "own" effect. So if the target of Snatch Steal was placed face-down by Book of Moon, Snatch Steal will be destroyed.

Normally, if you were to Mystical Space Typhoon Snatch Steal while target remained face-up, it would return to the previous controller, because you can determine the target.

Now in the case of Book of Moon, the target goes face-down, Snatch Steal is destroyed by game mechanic, but the original target of Snatch Steal cannot be determined since it is now face-down. Thats why control of that monster does not switch.
 
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So, if I understand you correctly, your argument in favor of the flipped down monster not returning to its original contorler is that becase the target of Snatch Steal (which was face up to begin) can no longer be determined.

I believe however, that the original target of Snatch Steal can be determined, since we as players can and sometimes do know what face down monsters are. For example, if I set Big Shield Guardna face down, I know that its Big Shield, and not some other monster. I can even use its effect to negate the effect of a spell card that targets it if it is face down.

If a monster is stolen with Snatch Steal, and then flipped face down, not only would both players be able to tell you what the original target of Snatch Steal was, so would anyone who was watching the game with a Basic understand of Yugioh. Why then would the original target of Snatch be unable to be determined?

Also, under what game mechanic would we no longer be able to determine the original target of Snatch Steal?
 
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If a monster is flipped face down Snatch Steal is no longer equip. to it, Snatch Steal would be in the graveyard, in other words the target of the Snatch Steal that is now in the graveyard is irrelevent.
 
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John Danker said:
Snatch Steal would be in the graveyard, in other words the target of the Snatch Steal that is now in the graveyard is irrelevent.
Click to expand...

An official answer. To help ease your mind, Tonylaudat. ;)

This is due to Snatch Steal's "Equip insignia" is what determines the target. The icon next to where it states [Spell Card] / [Magic Card]

If Snatch Steal were destroyed by Mystical Space Typhoon, it is no longer attached to it's target, but it can be determined since it is face-up on the field.

If the target of Snatch Steal's target was placed face-down, Snatch Steal is destroyed by game machanic. As a basic rule, Equip cards cannot be equipped to face-down monsters, so the "Equip insignia" on Snatch Steal can no longer determine the target, it remains face-down on the field, not switching to the previous controller.
 
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How does the equip insignia of Snatch Steal determine its target? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the player who played Snatch Steal determine the target at the time of activation. As far as I can see, the only think that the equip insignia on Snatch Steal does is to inform the player what a vaild target for Snatch Steal would be (in this case a face up monster).

John Danker said "If a monster is flipped face down Snatch Steal is no longer equip. to it, Snatch Steal would be in the graveyard, in other words the target of the Snatch Steal that is now in the graveyard is irrelevent."

Am I correct in my belief that the argument here is that Snatch Steal is destoried first, and then the question of what happens to its target is addressed?

But how can this be? If I flip a stolen monster face down, this creates a problem for Snatch Steal. Its target (the stolen monster) went from being a valid target to an invalid one. We still know what the monster is, and the monster is still here. If Snatch Steal could (in theory) equip itself to a face down monster (which it can't) then it would still know what its target was destpie the fact that it is now face down. Since this is the case, then the fact that Snatch Steal is destoried becasue it can't determine what its target is can not be true.

Rather, as I just said, the problem for Snatch Steal becomes the fact that its target has changed from a valid on to an invalid one. This causes Snatch Steal to be destoried, and rasies the question of what happens to the monster that was stolen.

Lets look at what happenes here:

First of all, the monster flipped face down is no longer a valid target for Snatch Steal. I believe that this happens first becasue it would make sense to deal with the immideate consaquenses of flipping the monster face down (the changing in status of Snatch Steal's target), before the indrect ones (Snatch Steal being destoried). In fact, doesn't if have to happen this way, since Snatch Steal has to realize that its target is no longer valid before it can know to be destoried by game mechanics?

Becasue the target is no longer valid, it is no longer affected by Snatch Steal. This would cause it to return to its original controler (since as I stated in eariler posts, Snatch Steal doesn't say anything about the conditions under which the stolen monster will return).

After that is done (all of which occured becasue Snatch Steal's target was no longer valid), then Snatch Steal realized that it no longer has a valid target, and thus is destoried via game mechanics. Since the monster has already returned to its original controler, then it would stay there.
 
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Snatch Steal "equip insignia" is what determines the target.

You cannot determine what is face-down. Snatch Steal is destroyed by game mechanic as Equip cannot equip to face-down. So you cannot determine the target.
 
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