Some questions: Berserk Gorilla, Wave-Motion Cannon

[Madma]

1) Can Tragedy be activated after a Berserk Gorilla has been changed to defense position? Can it be activated before Berserk Gorilla is destroyed by its effect, or after?

2) Can Wave-Motion Cannon be send to the graveyard while Imperial Order is Active? And will its effect work ('cause in that moment it will be in the graveyard)?

 

[John Danker]

"Jinzo" - "As long as this card remains face-up on the field, Trap Cards cannot be activated. The effects of all face-up Trap Cards are negated." Again, we see the face-up restriction; however, there is no mention of them having to be on the field. Face-up to me implies it must be face up at resolution, or already face-up to be negated by "Jinzo". So the "Waboku" example John gave earlier surprises me to be correct.[End QUOTE]

Let me see if I can explain this in different terms. I realize it's a difficult pill to swallow.

If I activate Dark Hole and you chain Mystical Space Typhoon targeting Dark Hole we know that Dark Hole's effect still resolves right? Why? Because the effect of Dark Hole has left the card Dark Hole an empty shell. The card itself no longer has meaning. Dark Hole's effect floats on the field waiting to resolve. The same held true in my example of Waboku and Jinzo.

The wording on Jinzo is poor no doubt. It should be redone and worded more like Imperial Order making this discussion unnecessary. I'm afraid as often times is the case, we're at the mercy of Konami for card wording and stuck making rulings that aren't clearly defined on the card.

 

[novastar]

Wave-Motion Cannon when it is FIRST activated (placed on the field) is to count Standby turns, but that is not yet its effect.

The complete resolution (activation of its effect) is to send the card to the Graveyard AND inflict damage to your opponent per Standby turns counted. With Imperial Order active, you cannot complete the full resolution of WMC's effect, as the damage portion Disappears due to Spell Cards effect's being negated.

Actually what Rai stated (which is agree) is that you should not be able to send WMC at all to activate its damage effect while IO is face-up.

The current UDE ruling is erroneous as while IO is active Spell Cards should be inert and you should not be able to send WMC (activate the effect).

 

[masterwoo0]

Actually what Rai stated (which is agree) is that you should not be able to send WMC at all to activate its damage effect while IO is face-up.

The current UDE ruling is erroneous as while IO is active Spell Cards should be inert and you should not be able to send WMC (activate the effect).

I also agree that you should not be able to activate the effect, but (gingerly stepping into the water), this is "somewhat similar" to using Level Up! on Horus LV6.

If you can offer LV6 to Special Summon LV8, even though LV6 is unaffected by Spell Cards, since the cost of activating Level Up! is not included in the effect, then how is offering Wave-Motion Cannon any different?

Imperial Order doesnt negate cost, only effect, thats why you no longer gain 1000 life points from Snatch Steal while IO is active, but still have to pay for Messenger of Peace.

 

[densetsu_x]

Why "shouldn't" you be allowed to re-activate the card? "Imperial Order" never negated the activations and in WMC's case, you're still counting the number of Standby Phases that it is still on the field even with IO out there.

 

[John Danker]

Actually what Rai stated (which is agree) is that you should not be able to send WMC at all to activate its damage effect while IO is face-up.

The current UDE ruling is erroneous as while IO is active Spell Cards should be inert and you should not be able to send WMC (activate the effect).

Sending Wave Motion Cannon though is a cost of activation and Imperial Order does not negate the activation of a spell card only their effect as evidenced in the ruling for Emergency Provsions which states...

If you have "Imperial Order" active on your side of the field, you may send it to the Graveyard as part of the cost to activate "Emergency Provisions" and "Emergency Provisions" will not be negated. (Because "Imperial Order" negates the effects of Spell Cards, but not their activation. And by the time the effect of "Emergency Provisions" resolves, "Imperial Order" is no longer on the field.)

 

[novastar]

Imperial Order doesnt negate cost, only effect, thats why you no longer gain 1000 life points from Snatch Steal while IO is active, but still have to pay for Messenger of Peace.

I know you agree but just to clarify... The difference here is that you are talking about a maintenance cost vs. a manually activated effect cost. Apples and Oranges.

Why "shouldn't" you be allowed to re-activate the card? "Imperial Order" never negated the activations and in WMC's case, you're still counting the number of Standby Phases that it is still on the field even with IO out there.

This is actually a bit of a misconception. The calculation is actually performed when WMC's damage effect resolves, similar to Needle Burrower. While IO is active WMC is inactive.

I realize that the "Official" ruling on WMC states differently, but even if we assume that it is correct, the keeping track of Standby Phases is not part of the effect, the calculation and damage are the effect.

This is not like Swords, which actually has a life span, which has nothing to do with the effect of the card.

Sending Wave Motion Cannon though is a cost of activation and Imperial Order does not negate the activation of a spell card only their effect as evidenced in the ruling for Emergency Provsions which states...

If you have "Imperial Order" active on your side of the field, you may send it to the Graveyard as part of the cost to activate "Emergency Provisions" and "Emergency Provisions" will not be negated. (Because "Imperial Order" negates the effects of Spell Cards, but not their activation. And by the time the effect of "Emergency Provisions" resolves, "Imperial Order" is no longer on the field.)

The Emergency Provisions example doesn't fit here, as you are talking about a Quickplay vs. a Continuous Spell Card, and the effect of EP happens at Card Activation, which is why you can activate and pay the cost.

You can activate the cards themselves, but once brought into play, all of the effects of a Continuous Spell Card should be nullified (of course life span and maintenance costs excluded). Imperial Order does not prevent Card Activation, so you can activate and bring (the card) WMC into play, but once resolved to the field it should be inert in respect to it's effect.

In the end, manual and triggered "effects" of Continuous Spell Cards should not be able to actually "activate" while IO is active. You can activate the "card" but not an "effect".

The reason Skill Drain is different is because the game itself views the activation of Monster Effects as "Card Activation" which is why they still activate even if Skill Drain is active.

Hope that helps

 

[MadHatter]

Inspection - If Imperial Order is activate one may still pay the cost of Inspection and attempt to activate it's effect. The cost is paid, the getting to look at a card is negated. I repeat a few times and flip Last Turn and watch my opponent scramble in disbelief. :O Note, you can see this ruling in NetRep 6.2. The ruling was different in 6.0.

Spell costs can always be paid (Spell Economics and current life points aside . Sending WMC as a cost makes sense to me.

So it is consistent that the cost of a continous manually ignited (for lack of a better word) spell card may be paid while Imperial Order is active.