Question:How many players of yugioh use a deck that they didn't come up with.They use a deck that they saw an thought that might be good for me so they use it they might change 1-2 cards but that doesn't make it original now does it. With the multitude of cards available why is it that all you see are the same tired decks with the same tired mix of monsters. Come on now people please use the brain that you were given an make some more decks up dont rip on some one else.And try to use a few different cards theres enough of them out there.
Stop Ripping decks!!!
- Thread starter alan75
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Peps
Irish Duelist
"Originality" does not exist in a TCG. Never has, never will. At some point, someone else would have created a very similar deck to whatever you create. There's millions of other players so the odds are fairly high enough. For example, what proof is there that I didn't already create Zombie COSR before it topped any tournament? Not saying I did, but point is, why should I not be able to play a deck that I created first that someone else tops with later? Would you call me a "netdecker"? "Originality" cannot exist, plain and simple. Unless you somehow get some form of a patent for the deck, it's impossible. Also I believe there's some sort of rule where you can't patent combinations or something like that. In fact, I looked at your previous posts, and you posted an Elemental Hero deck. Explain how that is "original" please. I've seen thousands of other decks based around Elemental Heroes, 95% similar to yours. Also, you even "netdecked" a Demise OTK deck before, card for card.
If you're wondering why some decks are "underused", then that's a different matter altogether. Simply put, the decks have been tested, and they didn't work in a competitive metagame. They lacked consistency, power and probably had dead draws frequently. Also, assuming we're talking about prized tournaments here, why would you want to decrease your chances of winning by taking something proven not to work? If you want to see "underused" decks get the spotlight for once, then work on them and make them counter the metagame. All it takes is simple logic and practice, complaining about other people's deck choices will get you nowhere and is not going to change a thing. To be honest, I'd rather the majority of players copied decks as it makes it far easier to counter the metagame.
Anywho, to answer your original question, ever since Gadgets were released, I have never copied any deck bar for fun and casual games. I've used Gadgets competitively since January '07 and I've been performing very consistently with them, especially recently having either gotten 1st/2nd place at the last four tournaments I went to. I've worked long and hard on my own variations of Gadgets to make them work, from the ground up.
If you're wondering why some decks are "underused", then that's a different matter altogether. Simply put, the decks have been tested, and they didn't work in a competitive metagame. They lacked consistency, power and probably had dead draws frequently. Also, assuming we're talking about prized tournaments here, why would you want to decrease your chances of winning by taking something proven not to work? If you want to see "underused" decks get the spotlight for once, then work on them and make them counter the metagame. All it takes is simple logic and practice, complaining about other people's deck choices will get you nowhere and is not going to change a thing. To be honest, I'd rather the majority of players copied decks as it makes it far easier to counter the metagame.
Anywho, to answer your original question, ever since Gadgets were released, I have never copied any deck bar for fun and casual games. I've used Gadgets competitively since January '07 and I've been performing very consistently with them, especially recently having either gotten 1st/2nd place at the last four tournaments I went to. I've worked long and hard on my own variations of Gadgets to make them work, from the ground up.
EmeraldDragon
Bringer of Doom
Well actually peps your last tournament you came 4th. Good thing it wasnt a sanctioned event though. Saying that ya did win the one beforehand.
Anyway back on topic. Alan75 i feel your pain really i do. Most people do just copy decks cos they are either bad at making decks to counter such decks or they simply wanna run whats winning. Some people see whats winning and make their own versions which is ok but could be better. Really its just the way it is right now but if you wanna fight against it then the best place to do so is the cookieslayer collective forums (which should be added to the resources menu DJ) so why not just get on there and see how much it can help you in your goals of seeing original decks and deck ideas. I know youre there already but havent been active. Well try applying for team member status and see much much more that could free you of your unoriginality problem.
Anyway back on topic. Alan75 i feel your pain really i do. Most people do just copy decks cos they are either bad at making decks to counter such decks or they simply wanna run whats winning. Some people see whats winning and make their own versions which is ok but could be better. Really its just the way it is right now but if you wanna fight against it then the best place to do so is the cookieslayer collective forums (which should be added to the resources menu DJ) so why not just get on there and see how much it can help you in your goals of seeing original decks and deck ideas. I know youre there already but havent been active. Well try applying for team member status and see much much more that could free you of your unoriginality problem.
Peps
Irish Duelist
In the second tournament, I actually won between me and Magic_Darkness. So overall, we both had 3 wins and 1 loss.
“The most original authors are not so because they advance what is new, but because they put what they have to say as if it had never been said before.” —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
“Originality does not consist in saying what no one has ever said before, but in saying exactly what you think yourself.” —James Stephens
“True originality consists not in a new manner but in a new vision.” —Edith Wharton
“Originality does not consist in saying what no one has ever said before, but in saying exactly what you think yourself.” —James Stephens
“True originality consists not in a new manner but in a new vision.” —Edith Wharton
“Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago.” —Bernard Berenson
“If you're not prepared to be wrong, you'll never come up with anything original.” —Sir Ken Robinson
“Individuality is either the mark of genius or the reverse. Mediocrity finds safety in standardization.” —Frederick E. Crane
“Individuality is either the mark of genius or the reverse. Mediocrity finds safety in standardization.” —Frederick E. Crane
“There is one characteristic of the present direction of public opinion, peculiarly calculated to make it intolerant of any marked demonstration of individuality. The general average of mankind are not only moderate in intellect, but also moderate in inclinations: they have no tastes or wishes strong enough to incline them to do anything unusual, and they consequently do not understand those who have, and class all such with the wild and intemperate whom they are accustomed to look down upon.” —John Stuart Mill
“If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” —Henry David Thoreau
“What moves those of genius, what inspires their work is not new ideas, but their obsession with the idea that what has already been said is still not enough.” —Eugene Delacroix
“If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” —Henry David Thoreau
“What moves those of genius, what inspires their work is not new ideas, but their obsession with the idea that what has already been said is still not enough.” —Eugene Delacroix
Right. Two people could be using the exact same deck, but one uses a move the other never knew about or never knew worked, thus an original idea amongst the new has been proven.
I could play a Neo-Spacian deck with mine, and while the computer would always default on using "Fake Hero" for a Neos for fusions, I also implement using "Fake Hero" for Stratos in order to build turns of advantage.
I could play a Neo-Spacian deck with mine, and while the computer would always default on using "Fake Hero" for a Neos for fusions, I also implement using "Fake Hero" for Stratos in order to build turns of advantage.
Peps
Irish Duelist
@ Digital Jedi : According to James Stephens' definition of "originality", that means people who have voiced their opinions about certain themes and have chosen to run those certain top tier decks such as D-Raida, Zombies, Six Samurai et cetera are "original". If I have chosen to run say Six Samurai to win a SJC for once, according to Edith Wharton, I would be "original" for having a new vision. Would it be considered "original" for opting to run Solemn Judgment over Phoenix Wing Wind Blast? According to the people you've quoted, yes it is. However, you and I are both aware that that is not what the topic creator is referring to. In fact, he even indirectly admitted that part himself, claiming that innovation isn't "original", despite it qualifying under the definitions of "originality".
I have seen plenty of these type of threads during my experience with the game, and it's fairly obvious that the topic creator is simply having trouble facing the current top tier decks. Despite how cruel that may sound, it's the number one reason for these type of threads. I've met plenty of people who have said something similar and that is what normally happens. Why else complain about something if you're already beating it? I would love for a metagame to be somewhat predictable as it makes it all the more easier to conquer. All you got to do is use your head.
For clarification, when I refer to the line "Also, assuming we're talking about prized tournaments here, why would you want to decrease your chances of winning by taking something proven not to work? " I'm referring mainly to the mentality of players. Many players think if it doesn't top, it doesn't work. Though, there's obviously positives and negatives to such a statement, but I just needed to clarify that, otherwise I would seem hypocritical for running Gadgets.
Though seriously, complaining to other players and telling people to change their mentality does not work. It's been like that for what, since any competitive game started? Instead, the topic creator and anyone else who wants something "underused" to work in a competitive environment, they should do constant and consistent testing and tweaking until it wins against top tier decks. That's what myself and probably dozens of other "pros" at the game have been doing in order to win. Creating a deck that defeats the metagame doesn't happen overnight, it takes time and effort. Complaining is just asking for the work to be done for you.
@ Oceanus : What you're talking about isn't originality, but skill. It's skill in knowing the different moves your deck can do. People who've only begun using a certain deck won't know everything about it, but someone else more experienced with it will. Nothing else more to say about it really.
I have seen plenty of these type of threads during my experience with the game, and it's fairly obvious that the topic creator is simply having trouble facing the current top tier decks. Despite how cruel that may sound, it's the number one reason for these type of threads. I've met plenty of people who have said something similar and that is what normally happens. Why else complain about something if you're already beating it? I would love for a metagame to be somewhat predictable as it makes it all the more easier to conquer. All you got to do is use your head.
For clarification, when I refer to the line "Also, assuming we're talking about prized tournaments here, why would you want to decrease your chances of winning by taking something proven not to work? " I'm referring mainly to the mentality of players. Many players think if it doesn't top, it doesn't work. Though, there's obviously positives and negatives to such a statement, but I just needed to clarify that, otherwise I would seem hypocritical for running Gadgets.
Though seriously, complaining to other players and telling people to change their mentality does not work. It's been like that for what, since any competitive game started? Instead, the topic creator and anyone else who wants something "underused" to work in a competitive environment, they should do constant and consistent testing and tweaking until it wins against top tier decks. That's what myself and probably dozens of other "pros" at the game have been doing in order to win. Creating a deck that defeats the metagame doesn't happen overnight, it takes time and effort. Complaining is just asking for the work to be done for you.
@ Oceanus : What you're talking about isn't originality, but skill. It's skill in knowing the different moves your deck can do. People who've only begun using a certain deck won't know everything about it, but someone else more experienced with it will. Nothing else more to say about it really.
"The point of quotations is that one can use another's words to be insulting."
~ Amanda Cross (1926 - )
"What's the use of a good quotation if you can't change it?"
~ Doctor Who
"Things are only impossible until they're not."
~ Jean-Luc Picard, 'Star Trek: The Next Generation'
Just some I thought I'd throw in, since we're all doing it.
As for my thoughts on the topic, just in case my post is unnecessary at the moment, I think it's fine to use a Deck identical to whatever CC Decks are lying around, as long as you make it yourself. You may find a few ideas in the CC Decklists to add to your own Deck, but as long as you want to build that Deck and use it yourself (as opposed to copying for the sake of thinking it works and will win for you), then that's perfectly fine. The winners who make Decks popular actually do this - they use their own ideas, not take someone else's and change a couple of cards. I think they have it hardest of all (although winning all the big tournaments certainly would take the edge off it ).
~ Amanda Cross (1926 - )
"What's the use of a good quotation if you can't change it?"
~ Doctor Who
"Things are only impossible until they're not."
~ Jean-Luc Picard, 'Star Trek: The Next Generation'
Just some I thought I'd throw in, since we're all doing it.
As for my thoughts on the topic, just in case my post is unnecessary at the moment, I think it's fine to use a Deck identical to whatever CC Decks are lying around, as long as you make it yourself. You may find a few ideas in the CC Decklists to add to your own Deck, but as long as you want to build that Deck and use it yourself (as opposed to copying for the sake of thinking it works and will win for you), then that's perfectly fine. The winners who make Decks popular actually do this - they use their own ideas, not take someone else's and change a couple of cards. I think they have it hardest of all (although winning all the big tournaments certainly would take the edge off it
).I don't see how using similar cards in different ways cannot be considered originality. There isn't always a right and wrong way to things, and there's no way you can put a label on which you choose with the word "skill."
Taking things into your own hands and developing these different ways is coming up with original ideas. Just because you consider a certain move more skillful than another does not mean that is correct, especially in varying circumstances (and the fact that that would be an opinion).
Just because you are the first to build an Alien deck doesn't make me think of you as an original thinker right off the bat, does it you?
Taking things into your own hands and developing these different ways is coming up with original ideas. Just because you consider a certain move more skillful than another does not mean that is correct, especially in varying circumstances (and the fact that that would be an opinion).
Just because you are the first to build an Alien deck doesn't make me think of you as an original thinker right off the bat, does it you?
At some point, we have to stop trying to dissect what people are saying when they complain about a lack of originality, and just take the words for what they mean. Same decks, same cards, same strategies over and over again. Very basic and very easy to identify with. Your trying to define originality as something that exists card by card. It's more then that. It's attempting to do something different, because you can. It's believing that there is a wealth of knowledge and potential in the card pool that is being ignored. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then that would be a serious presumption on your part. Ive seen plenty of these threads too. And I happen to know a few of these same types of people. They can beat the top tier decks just fine. Problem is, they play the top tier decks to do it. When everyone plays the same decks against each other, what happens is that Yu-Gi-Oh! becomes Poker or Gin Rummy. The point of a TCG is to have more options then a traditional card game, and to just play the same decks over and over again belittles the intention of the game and bores the champion and the novice alike.
And my point for quoting what I did, was to point out that this mentality only creates ruts. If there's no variation, there's no progression. No one learns what else is out there.
Do you really think that the topic starter, or any other thread starter like this one, thought they were going to change the world by doing so? A topic like this is more often then not started out of a frustration with CC mentality. And not to mention, how else can you find those that are on your side?
What do you think the merit of originality is? Skill is learned though trial and test. The more alleys you venture down, the more avenues you explore, the more experience you'll gain.
Peps
Irish Duelist
In a tournament environment, if there's a move that will give you the win, you'll figure it out. I've seen plenty of somewhat obscure moves, but that's all apart of skill. How often for example would you see someone special summon Disk Commander with one Fear Monger, and then use Torrential Tribute, and then use their other destroyed Fear Monger to special summon a Malicious to attack for the win? Someone who only began using the deck will probably never think of such a move, but someone experienced will. It's not an original move at all, since other experienced users would have done the exact same thing, and overall, it's just a move and nothing more. You're not creating anything new, you're simply just using your knowledge about rulings and the deck to achieve victory. In other words, skill.
The skillful play is always the correct play. Otherwise, why would it be called a "skillful play"? How can an incorrect play ever be considered skillful? Not possible at all. If it causes you to lose, where's the skill in that?
As for your last paragraph, it is fairly vague. I can tell you for a fact anyways that building an Alien deck isn't "original" since loads of other people thought of the idea since their release. Thousands of people have already tested them and building an Alien deck as well would be just jumping onto the bandwagon. And according to the topic creator, even changing a few cards in it still doesn't make the deck "original".
EDIT:
Digital Jedi said:
My complaint is that "originality" is the wrong term to use. It does not exist in a TCG as your quotes have proven. The problem with YGO is that the creators of the game, namely Konami, simply don't know how to design cards properly. That's the only reason why you see 80% of the card pool being "ignored". Some cards do indeed have potential, yet, they just don't have the sufficient support. UDE obviously recognised this and created monsters such as Grandmaster of the Six Samurai, as we all know, boosted Six Samurais from an awful theme to a dominating theme with just one card. Also, some cards eventually just become outclassed. For example, why run Stop Defense when there's Enemy Controller? Why run Gravedigger's Ghoul when there's Soul Release?
Also, during the past year, the format has become highly diverse. I'll just quote a list of decks I made for myself when thinking of a decklist for the UK Pharaoh Tour Final:
Six Samurai
Baboon Burn
Perfect Circle
Macro Cosmos
Light and Darkness Dragon
Demise OTK
CO Burn
Zombies
Bazoo Return
Volcanic Monarchs
Gadgets
DDT
There's obviously far more competitive themes than that, but those are the ones I would expect to see at least next week. Yet even after all of that development of the metagame, there's still some people complaining about "originality".
Digital Jedi said:
However, the moment they top a regional or a SJC et cetera, they are no longer deemed "original" and the complainers continue to complain about "originality". It's a continuous cycle. That's fact. It happens in every game that's competitive. Players always look up to the best and copy their tactics for the hope of winning. It's natural. It's human nature. And regardless, the TCG currently does have loads of options as I have proven just above. There's even more options than that when you put some effort into the deck. For the last few sanctioned tournaments I went to, I faced a different deck every single round. Do I get bored? Not a chance, I enjoy playing the game no matter what the circumstances are. I sometimes find it funny to play against people who rely on looking at SJC decks, especially if they don't know how to use them. If you get bored from playing against the same deck occasionally, then perhaps TCGs just aren't your thing.
Digital Jedi said:
To be honest, quite a lot of them do think that complaining is the solution to everything. This is something I've learned through retail. Just re-read the opening post again, I'll just quote the part that's clearly trying to urge people out there to change their ways: "Come on now people please use the brain that you were given an make some more decks up dont rip on some one else". Right there. That's obviously an attempt to urge people to change. If you want people to change, consistently win against them, without losing, and then maybe they'll see that merely copying decks alone gets you nowhere.
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I think you may be overcomplicating a very simplistic concept. Whether or not a move, or a combo or a specific deck has been tried before is not the point. It's the motivation behind it that makes it original predominantly. Your being to specified in what makes something original. It's the mindset, not the card set.
It's precisely the correct term to use, which is what my quotes were getting at. Originality is thinking in your own terms and exploring avenues that others have not. It's a mentality, and has less to do with how Konami designs cards, and more to do with people and how they are willing to think about those cards.
“You see things; and you say 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not’?” —George Bernard Shaw
I've said this before, less stagnation is not the same as more diversity.
There was a change in the top tier decks a few months back and suddenly their were around 10 to 12 different types. What lesson did people take from that? None at all. They continued to copy the top tier decks and cried diversity. The lesson that should have been learned is that you don't have to do the same thing to be top tier. The lesson was ignored and the decks continued to be copied. That's hardly a change in the metagame that one that tires of seeing repetition could feel good about.
Yes, it's an urge. But he hardly planned on changing with the world with a sentence that began "come on people".
I've done retail my whole life too, and complaints are borne more out of frustration then they are at any perception of results. Not all of us express ourselves the same way, nor have we been around enough to know that these type of threads have been started before. But that doesn't mean that the frustration isn't valid, nor by extension, the thread. People just want to be heard.
To conclude that there is no potential for originality in the TCG is to look at a card or deck and say it is what it is. To conclude that that there is potential for originality in the TCG is to look at a card or deck and wonder what could be. It's a fundamental difference in thinking, but one that the entire CookieSlayer Collective is founded on. Original thinkers from all over the world have gathered there and sought to make a difference in the meta's thinking, simply by leading by example. Sometimes we take a deck that another has created and help them refine it. Sometimes we build something so non-standard that it makes other's head explode trying to figure the strategy. But the point is, that you don't HAVE to do what the global meta is doing just to fit in or be a top tier player. But until more people are will to explore that, then it's not going to be evident to everyone.
kingpinopie
Himoura Shinta
honestly, I feel it is obvious, with the limited amount of cards that we have available to us to actually make an original deck. There is absolutely NO WAY to be original in this TCG...
and with that said, I hope we have all had a nice little dose of sarcasm... we all know that every time a new set comes out we see some sort of support, no matter how random in the set, that will support some type of deck that we have all wanted to try and use..... I used to use a Skill Drain deck way before it started to be mainstream.... It was my answer to those Chaos cc's..... Or how about Amazoness's ... ya everyone was trying to be a Zombie hype, or a Gravekeeper expert... but I just wanted to use the Amazoness's just because they were different and annoyed people.... eh, they never got above like 6th or 7th place out of 18 or 20 ppl.. but it was fun... but the people started to try and be original and when it was cool and worked it wound up here on the internet... so someone found an idea they had tossed around that actually worked, and ran with it..... hence the CC was born... WAY BACK when just a simple beatdown was the norm, so ppl started using Burn Decks to slow them down and widdle the lp...
wait... what was my point.... oh ya... u r only original until you tell someone else... but odds are that one of the other 28 million YGO players out there saw that card you just did also, and tried to make something out of it in a deck.... JUST LIKE YOU..... See, so now you know..... U can be unique just like everyone else ...... and knowing is half the battle !!
(this message brought to you by Kingpin o' Pie, the underworld master of sarcastic stupidity.. ... not even witty retort, just sarcastic stupidity... If anyone takes offense at this, than that proves that they are just as lame as I am ... please accept my comments as just lame humor meant to make light of a mildly controversial topic... By reading this statement you accept that you have no right to legal representation and that I deserve to eat all of your Double Stuff Oreos FOR LIFE ..... hehhe mmmmmmmmmmmm Oreos... aaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrhhgghghggghgghhhhh)) )
Have a great day !!
and with that said, I hope we have all had a nice little dose of sarcasm... we all know that every time a new set comes out we see some sort of support, no matter how random in the set, that will support some type of deck that we have all wanted to try and use..... I used to use a Skill Drain deck way before it started to be mainstream.... It was my answer to those Chaos cc's..... Or how about Amazoness's ... ya everyone was trying to be a Zombie hype, or a Gravekeeper expert... but I just wanted to use the Amazoness's just because they were different and annoyed people.... eh, they never got above like 6th or 7th place out of 18 or 20 ppl.. but it was fun... but the people started to try and be original and when it was cool and worked it wound up here on the internet... so someone found an idea they had tossed around that actually worked, and ran with it..... hence the CC was born... WAY BACK when just a simple beatdown was the norm, so ppl started using Burn Decks to slow them down and widdle the lp...
wait... what was my point.... oh ya... u r only original until you tell someone else... but odds are that one of the other 28 million YGO players out there saw that card you just did also, and tried to make something out of it in a deck.... JUST LIKE YOU..... See, so now you know..... U can be unique just like everyone else ...... and knowing is half the battle !!
(this message brought to you by Kingpin o' Pie, the underworld master of sarcastic stupidity.. ... not even witty retort, just sarcastic stupidity... If anyone takes offense at this, than that proves that they are just as lame as I am ... please accept my comments as just lame humor meant to make light of a mildly controversial topic... By reading this statement you accept that you have no right to legal representation and that I deserve to eat all of your Double Stuff Oreos FOR LIFE ..... hehhe mmmmmmmmmmmm Oreos... aaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrhhgghghggghgghhhhh)) )
Have a great day !!
Deathjester
New Member
If more people can be encouraged to think "Let's show everyone what other strategies can be used in addition to the ones that are already known" instead of "Let's stick with the decks on the 'Top 16' Lists since they seem to work the most" and more people are willing to listen to the former idea, then that's one of, if not the greatest goal that can be achieved in the TCG right now.
Peps
Irish Duelist
@ Digital Jedi : What you're striving for isn't "originality" at all. It's striving to change a mindset as you have said yourself. As I have proven using your quotes earlier, running top tier decks, even with 1 or 2 changes is "original". We both know that the majority of other people in this thread would say that that's not true, despite it being true according to various definitions. Therefore, "originality" is FAR too vague of a term in order to describe your goal. It's the mindset of awful players who merely copy decks for no reason that your looking to change. Think why our current format exists the way it is, it's because skilled players are using new and different ideas and are topping with them. Lazaro Bellido created a very unique Zombie deck that nobody expected and dominated a Regional with it. Jonathan Labounty showed Phoenix Wing Wind Blast as a fairly useful and competitive card. Kenny So proved that Stall Burn using Wave-Motion Cannon can be a very powerful deck type in the game. "Originality is thinking in your own terms and exploring avenues that others have not." A lot of people have tested other various types of decks, and you know where that got them? Nowhere, because the themes just weren't good.
That does bring me to another point, I'll briefly just quote what you said, "Sometimes we build something so non-standard that it makes other's head explode trying to figure the strategy. But the point is, that you don't HAVE to do what the global meta is doing just to fit in or be a top tier player". However, the moment you do say, win a regional with a unique deck, it'll be copied like any other deck out there and again, will be deemed "unoriginal" and complainers will continue to complain. That's what happened to the above three players I've mentioned. They were "original", yet, were copied after their success. The mindset is impossible to change, it's telling people to change their human nature. It's simply is just not possible. If you truly want people to change, win or top 8 countless regionals/SJCs with a unique deck everytime. Maybe then you might slightly encourage some people to change, but other than that, it'll get nowhere. That would be the most productive solution to achieve your aim.
Now onto a seperate issue, can you honestly tell me that the likes of De-Spell is far more viable than Mystical Space Typhoon or Dust Tornado? Konami creates awful cards, it's quite simple. That's why a lot of cards aren't being played, because they simply don't compare to the advantage and speed of other cards. However, recently at least Konami is beginning to recognise this problem and have somewhat succeeded by creating Phantom Darkness, which can be considered as to be the next Invasion of Chaos. People have thought about previous cards before, and most of the effects most of the time just aren't worth the effort. For example, pick a draw engine, 3-Hump Lacooda or Destiny Draw. Every single player of the game will choose Destiny Draw, simply because it's much more easier to activate, and has similar rewards. Elemental Heroes may have an abundance of support, but only a select few such as Miracle Fusion are anywhere near useful. For example, I can't see how Hero Spirit is far more useful than Waboku. If you want more diversity, then Konami/UDE need to create better cards.
But don't you think that it's a vast improvement from just ONE decktype? That's like saying no improvement is anything satisfactory. Improvement has to start from somewhere. And there it is right in front of you. What would you rather, playing against a different decktype every round or continuously facing the same deck? It's improvement over the previous situation.
An urge is still trying to change people. It's pointless to complain directly to the players who merely copy decks. Do something more productive instead, which is winning numerous competitions. Complaining is not going to stop anyone from copying decks, except if anything, it might even achieve the opposite. From a certain perspective, the topic creator is giving the impression that copying decks wins games, since he's giving the impression that he's been beaten constantly by such decks numerous times. Anyone can deny that of course, but regardless, it is the impression he is giving by complaining.
That does bring me to another point, I'll briefly just quote what you said, "Sometimes we build something so non-standard that it makes other's head explode trying to figure the strategy. But the point is, that you don't HAVE to do what the global meta is doing just to fit in or be a top tier player". However, the moment you do say, win a regional with a unique deck, it'll be copied like any other deck out there and again, will be deemed "unoriginal" and complainers will continue to complain. That's what happened to the above three players I've mentioned. They were "original", yet, were copied after their success. The mindset is impossible to change, it's telling people to change their human nature. It's simply is just not possible. If you truly want people to change, win or top 8 countless regionals/SJCs with a unique deck everytime. Maybe then you might slightly encourage some people to change, but other than that, it'll get nowhere. That would be the most productive solution to achieve your aim.
Now onto a seperate issue, can you honestly tell me that the likes of De-Spell is far more viable than Mystical Space Typhoon or Dust Tornado? Konami creates awful cards, it's quite simple. That's why a lot of cards aren't being played, because they simply don't compare to the advantage and speed of other cards. However, recently at least Konami is beginning to recognise this problem and have somewhat succeeded by creating Phantom Darkness, which can be considered as to be the next Invasion of Chaos. People have thought about previous cards before, and most of the effects most of the time just aren't worth the effort. For example, pick a draw engine, 3-Hump Lacooda or Destiny Draw. Every single player of the game will choose Destiny Draw, simply because it's much more easier to activate, and has similar rewards. Elemental Heroes may have an abundance of support, but only a select few such as Miracle Fusion are anywhere near useful. For example, I can't see how Hero Spirit is far more useful than Waboku. If you want more diversity, then Konami/UDE need to create better cards.
Digital Jedi said:
But don't you think that it's a vast improvement from just ONE decktype? That's like saying no improvement is anything satisfactory. Improvement has to start from somewhere. And there it is right in front of you. What would you rather, playing against a different decktype every round or continuously facing the same deck? It's improvement over the previous situation.
Digital Jedi said:
An urge is still trying to change people. It's pointless to complain directly to the players who merely copy decks. Do something more productive instead, which is winning numerous competitions. Complaining is not going to stop anyone from copying decks, except if anything, it might even achieve the opposite. From a certain perspective, the topic creator is giving the impression that copying decks wins games, since he's giving the impression that he's been beaten constantly by such decks numerous times. Anyone can deny that of course, but regardless, it is the impression he is giving by complaining.
I believe it is through your knowledge and seeking of rules and deck understanding that you become a more original thinker. I know it has me. I would even believe that the idea of "skill" could be coupled along with "originality", as they could very well be hand in hand compliments. The better you manage your cards, the more ideas you stumble upon that can give you originality.
In my opinion, there's no such thing as a correct and incorrect play, such would be opinionated and biased. If it causes you to lose, that doesn't mean you didn't make a valuable or skillful move, nor does it mean the duel is in your favor.
Aw, then you get my point. Deciding on your deck type isn't what qualifies originality, but how you use them, that is the key.
I honestly can't figure out what definition your using that says one or two card changes of someone else's deck is still original. What I think is happening here is that your taking every possible happenstance and minuscule instance of an original thought and saying "because I have milk, then I must be a cow".
But that's not what we're saying here. We are indeed talking about a mindset. If your mindset tells you that in order to win, you HAVE to do what the majority is doing in order to [insert label: "be a good player", "be a skilled duelist", "not be an outsider", etc], then your not being original. Your following the crowd. Originality is thinking, from the start, in your own terms, and recognizing where certain ideas come from. Sure, that has grey areas, but that doesn't make it something else. It wouldn't be what it was, if there weren't some areas of grey.
And that's the standard argument most people make. But, without intending to sound sarcastic here, so what? So what if an original idea again gets copied. So what, if that idea becomes a different form of CC? Does that somehow make the goal of trying to be an individual less virtuous?
What's going to matter here is what happens when thsese people win. What are they saying about what made them winners? Did the last top original deck builders turn to the audience and say "see what thinking in your own terms will get you?" Or did they just let (or perhaps continue to perpetuate) the notion of "you need to just copy what I do because I'm a winner" sustain? That's something the CSC would never do. We'd make a point to let people know how and why we got where we did.
And I disagree. Strongly. I'm not of the mindset that you "can't" do anything in this world. There are things that you choose not to do. And there are plenty of things that are steep uphill battles. But impossible to change a people's mindset? It's been done before, with far more important topics. Why not in a TCG?
Now, fundamentally, this is why we don't think in the same terms. The mindset that there are two types of cards, good and bad, is not one that an original thinker can generally subscribe to. This is a strategy game. And strategies are neither good, nor bad, based on their individual parts, but based on the whole. I run a Water Deck that runs Umiiruka. Why, when A Legendary Ocean is what everyone tells me to run? Because my strategy is not based on monsters that benefit from Umi. My strategy is something different. It's neither correct, nor incorrect, neither good nor bad, based on the fact that I don't run the "good" Field Spell Card for Water. It's one of a kind, and is so because I try to do something that isn't inherently taken for granted when one says "Water Deck". I taking the time to see if something else can be done and done well and not just assuming that because the cards aren't in a certain category, that their not going to work.
Again, it's the mindset that creates these though patterns. Think outside them, and there's a world of ideas waiting to be discovered. Continue to think inside them, and of course you'll see only ten to twelve decktypes top.
It's the difference between a cell and solitary confinement. Sure, the cell is an improvement, but I'm still in prison.
It's only pointless to those with the mindset who think that it can't change. The CSC was built because of people like him, because of threads like this. I can't honestly tell you that threads like these do nothing, because if it weren't for threads like these, I would have thought I was alone in my thinking, and the CSC would have never been created.
Change can't come from being silent. And you can't find the like minded if they don't send out a distress beacon every once in a while. It may be annoying if your mindset is a certain way. A mindset that says, you only complain because your not a good player. But that's not fair to the poster or to people who are just as skilled as 70% of the meta and are still sick of seeing the same things over and over again.
Even subtracting the effect-less monsters and the Ritual Spell Cards from the TCG, you still get around 2000+. That's a heck of a lot of potential for variation. The problem is that so few people mine those resources, and the mindset is to only do what's already been done, that when something new is discovered, it doesn't change the mindset. And copying continues. People learn there's a new deck, but don't learn the lesson form that new deck. And actually, with 28 million players all playing the same game, strictly speaking, there should be more variation, not less. It's like 28 million people all discovering the wheel all over again. Sure, it's nice that you can roll with the rest of us for the last million years, but when are one of you guys going to invent the hovercraft?
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