Summoning Rules and Negations

[densetsu_x]

we all know for sure that you CANNOT chain to the summon of a monster and IO and jinzo are VERY different. Heres some examples of how to prove this...

it goes like this for jinzo
step 1: sac for jinzo (jinzos effect activates automatically
step 2: your opponent cannot activate any traps and jinzo pwns
as simple as that...

Not quite as simple as that. There is one thing you must take into consideration first.

1) Player states he is summoning a monster.
2) Opponent may respond with "Horn of Heaven" / "Solemn Judgment" to negate it.
3) If summon is not negated, the monster is considered to have been successfully summoned.
4) Next, resolve any active continuous spell cards, continuous trap cards, and field spell in regards to the new monster.
5) If the monster has a continuous effect, it activates now. This activation may not be chained to and resolves before anything else can be done by any player.
5a) If the monster has a trigger effect upon being summoned or some other automatic effect, that activates now. This effect can be chained to by the opponent.
6) If the monster has a Cost effect or if there is a Cost effect monster on the turn player's side of the field, the turn player may activate one of these effects before the opponent can respond to the summoning.
7) The opponent may respond to the summon.

- A

 

[KnightCmdr]

I believe this has gone way out of proportion now, we are talking about creating a anthill out of a very small
thing here and the more we debate the worse it gets.

First, lets clarify something.  Responding to a summoned monster is not a chain because summoning a monster does
not involve evoking a spell or trap card, therefore playing a trap card that has been set for a turn in RESPONSE to the
summoning of a monster does NOT constitute a chain in any form, however, if the turn player then plays a spell or
counter trap, NOW we have a chain.

Let's uncomplicate this a bit, roll it back and see it for what it is..

Player A Draws a card - first thing to happen now that control passed from player B to A.
Player A summons Archfiend Soldier to the field (player a also has a cannon soldier already face-up on the field).
Player B responds to Archfiend soldier being summoned by playing Trap Hole
Player A responds back by playing 7 tools of the bandit (let's just skip the tricky part where the turn player
                                                                             has priority and his 7 tools becomes chain link 1, I believe
                                                                             that is ridiculous).
Player B does not respond
Player A does not respond

chain links resolve in reverse order
Player A's 7 tools of the bandit resolves negating Player B Trap Hole
Player B's Trap Hole is gone and therefore it's effect is also gone, Archfiend soldier stays on the field.
Player A continues and tributes archfiend soldier to give 500 points direct damage to player B by Cannon Soldier's effect.

NOW we have a correctly played sequence of cards.  Trap Hole was activated in response to a summon
and did NOT start a chain, player A can and would if possible respond to player A as above if possible
and this makes sense and it IS the way the game is played on the PC.  

All these magical instances that appear between putting a card on the table and the opponent being able to
legally respond are just nonsense made up by someone WANTING to be able to that and with a little authority
made it seem that way.  The game was DESIGNED for children to play and shouldn't require a College Degree in
Semantics or logistics to figure it all out.  Let's just keep it simple, some of the cards have text wording that is
complicated enough without trying to complicate the basic flow of the game.  It's supposed to be like this:

I do this
 you do that
I do this
 you do that

end my turn.. your turn now.

you do that
 I do this
you do that
 I do this

end your turn.  

Thats how simple it is supposed to be as far as the mechanics of the game and which is why I said it was
event driven.  It really is this simple...

 

[novastar]

I agree, unfortunately we know that you cannot use it during the "window" that Horn/SJ useduring a summon. Accoring to the rulings.

Since I'm relatively new here... where were those rulings?  And also would that mean that you can't use negate a Special Summoned "Jinzo"?  (Although I would gather, you could negate the effect of the card that's bringing him back to the field before it happens... akin to chaining MST to Call of the Haunted when Call is targeting Jinzo).

- A

Wow...now that i look at it (and searching), maybe i was just going nuts or something. Maybe you can do this.

Although i've never heard it put in that light. Whenever summon negation has been talked about, it has always been Horn/SJ. Royal Oppression never seems to come up. I did see a ruling on the judges board that stated that CED's summon could be negated by RO, but it did not state (of course not) exactely when you play the effect. Whether its during the "window" or during the summon response chain is unknown, as i have yet to see any concrete ruling for or against.

Like i said, i do agree it should be legal to activate this in the same window is Horm/SJ.

I believe this has gone way out of proportion now, we are talking about creating a anthill out of a very small
thing here and the more we debate the worse it gets.

Out of proportion? this is a discussion. I have always found it frustrating in these forums when you try to have an honest discussion, you get all kind of people just jumping in and saying that you should be talking about it.

Just because what is discussed is not "Official" doesn't mean anything, if you never discuss theoretical ideas you will never learn.

 

[densetsu_x]

And moreso, the part about "retrofitting" your priority as I said is just sloppy play BUT that is the official way to do it.

While the game is designed for childern (ideally) unfortunately you DO need a college degree to understand the complicated game mechanics of YGO.

- A

 

[KnightCmdr]

yea.. your right, Ideally is where I work from, too bad it doesn't exist in this world yet. And in
repsonse to the other guy, I was not trying to shut down the discussion, just re-route it a little
back to square one, re-examine all facts etc etc...

 

[anthonyj]

If I remember correctly Royal Oppression does negate the summon in the same window as Solemn Judgement or Horn of Heaven but it must have already been face up before the summon was declared. Also Solemn Judgement can negate the special summon from Monster Reborn but you are negating the resolution of Monster Reborn instead of the summoning of the monster itself. Which is why Horn stops less then Solemn Judgement does.

 

[densetsu_x]

If I remember correctly Royal Oppression does negate the summon in the same window as Solemn Judgement or Horn of Heaven but it must have already been face up before the summon was declared. Also Solemn Judgement can negate the special summon from Monster Reborn but you are negating the resolution of Monster Reborn instead of the summoning of the monster itself. Which is why Horn stops less then Solemn Judgement does.

1) Re: Royal Oppression - Yeah, you couldn't chain it's activation and then use it. It would have to be face up first in order to use the negation effect.

2) Solemn Judgment - Are you sure about that? Even though the rulings for both SJ and HoH aren't up there right now, I recall reading Solemn Judgment had the same restriction in that it couldn't negate a special summon of a monster by another card's effect just like Horn of Heaven. The 2 were the same in that aspect. Of course with Solemn Judgment, you could just negate Monster Reborn instead.

- A

 

[anthonyj]

Solemn Judgement can not negate the special summon of a monster through another card's effect. It would have to negate the card itself. So yes we are saying the same thing Solemn would negate Monster Reborn. A better example would be Ritual or Fusion monsters. Horn of Heaven can't prevent a Ritual or Fusion monster because they are special summoned by another card, Solemn Judgement can negate the Polymerization or Ritual Spell Card but then the tributes aren't used up (if you follow me), Royal Oppression negates the Special Summoned monster at summoning so you can stop Fusion or Ritual monsters and the spell card and fusion material or tributed monsters will be in the graveyard along with the newly summoned monster. Horn of Heaven has a smaller number of summons it can stop, Solemn has the same restrictions but can also be used against spell and trap cards so it can stop a bit more, and Royal Oppression is very specialized in what it does (since it can't stop a regular summon) but does it better than the others.

 

[densetsu_x]

Ok, that was the way I understood it as well.

Also, if I remember right, "Exodia Necross" would be immune to "Royal Oppression" as well...

- A

 

[novastar]

Royal Oppression negates the Special Summoned monster at summoning so you can stop Fusion or Ritual monsters and the spell card and fusion material or tributed monsters will be in the graveyard along with the newly summoned monster.

That doesn't seem to make sense to me.

In the case of Ritual Summoning or Fusion Summoning, you would still be chaining Royal Oppression's effect (assume its face-up) to the activation of the effect that is special summoning the monster. The tributes would not be made.

By the time the monster is summoned, it is too late to negate the summon.

Royal Oppression seems to do 2 things, it can negate the special summon of a monster from hand (much like Horn/SJ), or negate an effect that special summons. In the case of an outside effect (ie. Monster Reborn) you would chain to the activation of the effect. It would have to work this way in order for it to properly negate a special summon. Post 10552 by curtis seems to explain this pretty well.

Necross could not be immune because you are negating the effect that brings Necross to the field (Contract with Exodia). Necross' immunity to destruction is a continuous effect that is only active while he is face-up on the field, by negating the summon altogether, he is never face-up, and can be destoyed while in the hand or deck.