supply + future fusion

[1cup]

a simple verification:

monsters sent from the deck to the grave for future fusion are elegible to be returned to the hand via supply, correct?
(keeping in mind that future fusion is a proper fusion)

Supply
Effect Monster (Warrior / EARTH / 4 Stars / ATK 1300 / DEF 800)

FLIP: Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters that were sent to the Graveyard as a result of a Fusion Summon to your hand.

 

[HorusMaster]

a simple verification:

monsters sent from the deck to the grave for future fusion are elegible to be returned to the hand via supply, correct?
(keeping in mind that future fusion is a proper fusion)

Supply
Effect Monster (Warrior / EARTH / 4 Stars / ATK 1300 / DEF 800)

FLIP: Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters that were sent to the Graveyard as a result of a Fusion Summon to your hand.

Future Fusion's effect needs to resolve fully and summon the fusion monster before the effect of Supply can resolve properly and return the monsters sent to the graveyard for the fusion summon.

 

[Martok]

Future Fusion's effect needs to resolve fully and summon the fusion monster before the effect of Supply can resolve properly and return the monsters sent to the graveyard for the fusion summon.

The effect text (remember it's a LON card) is misleading here. On Fusion Recovery (CRV) it reads "used for a Fusion Summon".
As soon as Future Fusion resolves and the Fusion Material Monsters used for Future Fusion hit the Graveyard, they're legal targets for the effect of Supply. They were used for a fusion summon, and they don't care about the fate of the fusion monster

 

[orville]

thats cool for a machine toolbox, so you can future fusion 2 cyber dragons form your deck and get cybertwin and then get two cyber dragons to your hand how awsome!

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

The precedent is that when a card says "summoned" it means successful. (E.G Torrential Tribute has the exact same activation timing as Adhesion Trap Hole)

As well, the ruling under Supply, also refers to a summon that has been performed: "¢ If you have Fusion Summoned 2 Fusion Monsters during the course of the Duel, you may return 1 Fusion Material Monster from each of them with this card's effect.

You can only target monsters with Supply that were used in a successful Fusion Summon.

 

[cuzwbd]

The effect text (remember it's a LON card) is misleading here. On Fusion Recovery (CRV) it reads "used for a Fusion Summon".
As soon as Future Fusion resolves and the Fusion Material Monsters used for Future Fusion hit the Graveyard, they're legal targets for the effect of Supply. They were used for a fusion summon, and they don't care about the fate of the fusion monster

in the case of instant fusion - dont the monsters hit the graveyard long before ff resolves? i'd think they weren't valid targets unless ff does actually resolve...and i guess if you've done more than one fusion summon you can pick monsters from separate f summons...i would wonder if king of the swamp is a valid target...interesting....got roids?

 

[HorusMaster]

The effect text (remember it's a LON card) is misleading here. On Fusion Recovery (CRV) it reads "used for a Fusion Summon".
As soon as Future Fusion resolves and the Fusion Material Monsters used for Future Fusion hit the Graveyard, they're legal targets for the effect of Supply. They were used for a fusion summon, and they don't care about the fate of the fusion monster

While Fusion Recovery allows for monsters to be recovered, the important part of the card effect is that a "fusion summon" occurred. Future Fusion, although the cards are sent to the graveyard, doesn't fusion summon the monster until the second standby phase. As such, the monsters sent to the graveyard are not legal targets for either Fusion Recovery or Supply. Those cards effects cannot be used if the fusion summon did not occur.

 

[Martok]

The precedent is that when a card says "summoned" it means successful. (E.G Torrential Tribute has the exact same activation timing as Adhesion Trap Hole)

TT requires a certain timing and is not similar to Supply, which needs monsters with a certain condition placed on them.
The effect that is probably most similar to Fusion Recovery and Supply is the effect of Zolga, and guess what, is explicitly states "successful Tribute Summon or Set". And it can be assumed that there is some intention behind this.

As well, the ruling under Supply, also refers to a summon that has been performed: "¢ If you have Fusion Summoned 2 Fusion Monsters during the course of the Duel, you may return 1 Fusion Material Monster from each of them with this card's effect.

So Netrepâ„¢ lists 2 rulings for Supply, and you only read one of them?

If you have Fusion Sommoned 2 monsters, you can choose a "mixed" pair of targets for Supply. And what does that have to do with the topic? Does it say "only if" or does it say "if"? Look it up.

And why not have a look at the other ruling as well:
You must have 2 Fusion Material Monsters in YOUR Graveyard otherwise this card's effect will disappear when flipped.

It says you need 2 Fusion Material Monsters in your graveyard, and then the effect of Supply can resolve. Now this actually helps.

When do the monsters become Fusion Material Monsters?

Let's look at the first part of the card text of Future Fusion:
Send, from your Deck to the Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Fusion Monster Card, and select that 1 Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck.

This is all that happens when the card Future Fusion resolves. At this point, the monsters become Fusion Material Monsters and are fused into a monster that is selected from your fusion deck. The condition is placed on them now.
Approximately 2 turns later, you special summon a monster with the same name as the selected monster from your fusion deck. No "fusing" happens here. You don't even have to summon the monster that you selected. Why should Future Fusion place the condition on the material monsters now? They could be anywhere, they don't need to remain in the graveyard.

If Future Fusion is destroyed before your 2nd standby phase, then the summon does not occur. But the sent monsters remain Fusion Material Monsters, the effect of Future Fusion is not negated, and of course they're not shuffled back into the deck.

in the case of instant fusion - dont the monsters hit the graveyard long before ff resolves?

No material monsters are used for Instant Fusion.

i would wonder if king of the swamp is a valid target

Sure, as long as it was used for a Fusion Summon, it's a legal target for Supply.

 

[cuzwbd]

an interesting card... could find its way into some ufo riod/ super jumbo vehicriod decks and maybe an e-hero deck or 2 ... depending on the version...

 

[HorusMaster]

So Netrepâ„¢ lists 2 rulings for Supply, and you only read one of them?

If you have Fusion Sommoned 2 monsters, you can choose a "mixed" pair of targets for Supply. And what does that have to do with the topic? Does it say "only if" or does it say "if"? Look it up.

And why not have a look at the other ruling as well:
You must have 2 Fusion Material Monsters in YOUR Graveyard otherwise this card's effect will disappear when flipped.

It says you need 2 Fusion Material Monsters in your graveyard, and then the effect of Supply can resolve. Now this actually helps.

When do the monsters become Fusion Material Monsters?

Let's look at the first part of the card text of Future Fusion:
Send, from your Deck to the Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Fusion Monster Card, and select that 1 Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck.

This is all that happens when the card Future Fusion resolves. At this point, the monsters become Fusion Material Monsters and are fused into a monster that is selected from your fusion deck. The condition is placed on them now.
Approximately 2 turns later, you special summon a monster with the same name as the selected monster from your fusion deck. No "fusing" happens here. You don't even have to summon the monster that you selected. Why should Future Fusion place the condition on the material monsters now? They could be anywhere, they don't need to remain in the graveyard.

If Future Fusion is destroyed before your 2nd standby phase, then the summon does not occur. But the sent monsters remain Fusion Material Monsters, the effect of Future Fusion is not negated, and of course they're not shuffled back into the deck.

Sure, as long as it was used for a Fusion Summon, it's a legal target for Supply.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what part of the card text you're interpreting here for Supply.
FLIP: Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters that were sent to the Graveyard as a result of a Fusion Summon to your hand.

As far as the Netrepâ„¢ ruling you refer to:
RulingsYou must have 2 Fusion Material Monsters in YOUR Graveyard otherwise this card's effect will disappear when flipped.

In order for Supply 's effect to resolve properly you must have two parts of the effect met and satisfied:
1. Monsters in the graveyard that are used for a fusion summon and
2. A monster must be fusion summoned.

Future Fusion's effect does not resolve fully until the fusion monster is properly summoned on the second standby phase. Supply requires monsters that were used for a fusion summon to be in the graveyard. If the summon did not occur, then the effect disappears.
Plain and simple: no fusion summon, no effect for Supply

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

And why not have a look at the other ruling as well:
You must have 2 Fusion Material Monsters in YOUR Graveyard otherwise this card's effect will disappear when flipped.

It says you need 2 Fusion Material Monsters in your graveyard, and then the effect of Supply can resolve. Now this actually helps.

When do the monsters become Fusion Material Monsters?

Let's look at the first part of the card text of Future Fusion:
Send, from your Deck to the Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Fusion Monster Card, and select that 1 Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck.

This is all that happens when the card Future Fusion resolves. At this point, the monsters become Fusion Material Monsters and are fused into a monster that is selected from your fusion deck.

Your conclusion is baseless:
By the information you gave, the ruling there and the text of Future Fusion would suggest that just being listed on a Fusion Monster card is what makes a card a Fusion Material Monster.. (I.E. If you wait until Future Fusion is resolved, it is too late to determine what cards are fusion materials, and also by the ruling on future fusion that you must have: "¢ You cannot activate "Future Fusion" if you do not have a Fusion Monster in your Fusion Deck and the appropriate Fusion Material Monsters in your Main Deck.
Obviously, a monster has to be a Fusion Material monster before even activating Future Fusion.)

Supply does not say:

"Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters from the graveyard to your hand."

It says specifically that it were to be used for a fusion summon, it doesn't say "attempted" summon.

And although it doesn't specifically say successfully summoned, the precedent has already been established that "successful" is not a necessary word to include in a card text.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Well, I'm going to have to side with Martok here. There are two things to consider (I believe we touched on both, but it bears repeating). One, the fusion material monsters are sent to the graveyard as a result of a fusion summon (see Charles' answer to question about Future Fusion and Macro Cosmos http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=11773#11773 ), whether or not the fusion summon was successfull, as they are sent to the graveyard when the effect that fusion summons a monster resolves. Where the kicker comes in is that the effect that actually special summons (considered a fusion summon) a monster is said to "activate" during the second standby phase. As was pointed out, it doesn't even have to be the same monster that was selected, just a Monster with the same name. Therefore, it seems that there are two distinct effects activating and resolving, with a third in the waiting room (nature of a continuous card I'm afraid). First, the sending of the material monsters for the fusion summon. Second, the actual summon, tied only to the originally selected summoning Monster by name alone. Third the mutual destruction efffect (continuous). To me, the fact that you select a monster when the fusion material monsters go to the graveyard, says "fusion summon occured". Coupled with the fact that the special summon doesn't need to be that very card reinforces the idea that they are two different occurances. After all, in every other instance of fusion summoning, you select the fusion monster when you send the material monsters to the graveyard when the effect resolves.

What we seem to disagree on is simply whether the letter of the law of Supply demands that the Special Summon occur or not. Either way, the text can be read to support each side. True, the Fusion Material Monsters were used to (for the purpose of) Fusion Summon a monster. Also true, however, that the Fusion Material Monster were not used (successfully) to Fusion Summon a monster until after the resolution of the second effect.

Note, also, that the argument of "it doesn't say 'attempt'" is two-sided. It doesn't say "successfully" either. Future Fusion brings an element not originally considered way back when Supply first appeared. So, we must leave it up to the Judge list to sort this out. As for me, I will follow my Head Judge (skey) at Regionals, and for now, at my own rule that they are "Fusion Material Monsters used for a Fusion Summon".

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Note, also, that the argument of "it doesn't say 'attempt'" is two-sided. It doesn't say "successfully" either

Oh now i can Tribute my opponent's monster for Enemy controller because it doesn't say "my side of the field"

Its the burden of proof on anyone to argue against precedent, the established ruling is that "summoned" means the exact same as "successfully" summoned.

So it would take an official answer to the contrary to interpret in any other way.

 

[skey23]

DaGuy is correct. You cannot use the effect of "Supply" until the Fusion monster has actually been successfully summoned. If you attempt to use the effect of "Supply" immediately after activating "Future Fusion", then it won't work because there has not been any form of Fusion Summoning that has happened yet. All you have done is activated the effect of a card and sent some monsters to the Graveyard.

 

[Martok]

By the information you gave, the ruling there and the text of Future Fusion would suggest that just being listed on a Fusion Monster card is what makes a card a Fusion Material Monster.

No idea how you got that conclusion, but it's far from what I posted.

Being chosen and sent to the graveyard for the effect of FF makes the monsters Fusion Material Monsters.

Supply does not say:

"Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters from the to your hand."

Right, and that's a good thing since else one would have to wonder what "from the to you hand" could possible mean

Btw, back in the time of LON there hasn't been such a card as Future Fusion, so the wording did not have to be very exact.

Its the burden of proof on anyone to argue against precedent, the established ruling is that "summoned" means the exact same as "successfully" summoned.

Which does not matter in this case, as the text of Future Fusion does not contain the word "summoned".

So it would take an official answer to the contrary to interpret in any other way.

Well, AFAIK the question has already been submitted to the Judge List a while ago, so let's hope there will be an answer before next Christmas ^^

 

[Digital Jedi]

Being chosen and sent to the graveyard for the effect of FF makes the monsters Fusion Material Monsters.

Fusion Materials are Fusion Materials before, during and after they've been sent to the Graveyard. There's no time that they aren't. Otherwise what are you selecting to perform a Fusion Summon? Non-fusion material monsters? Fusion Materials are Fusion Materials, period. Just as a brick is brick, whether it's in a stack, in a brick mason's hand or in the wall of a building.

The issue here is not when they become Fusion Material Monsters, since they are always that anyway. The issue is whether Supply considers them monsters used "as a result of a Fusion Summon." What DaGuy is trying to point out, is that sending them for an effect that fails to summon anything is not considered "sent to the Graveyard as the result of a Fusion Summon". It was sent as a result of an effect that never fully resolved or completed, for lack of a better term.

There was no summon, so the Materials are not valid subjects for Supply's effect.

 

[HorusMaster]

Quoted: Being chosen and sent to the graveyard for the effect of FF makes the monsters Fusion Material Monsters.




Quoted: Which does not matter in this case, as the text of Future Fusion does not contain the word "summoned".


Point one- agreed that being chosen and sending monsters listed for a fusion monster make them "fusion material monsters".
Problem is that Supply requires that the monsters be used for a fusion summon (that's the part where the fusion monster is special summoned to the field). It doesn't ask for the cards to just be in the graveyard. They have to be in the graveyard in order for the fusion summon to occur for Supply's effect. If a card effect like BTH is played to destroy the monster after it is summoned, it does not negate the fact that the monster was summoned. Unless the monster is summoned, then Supply's effect of returning monsters that were used to fusion summon a monster will disappear.

Point two- While Future Fusion does not have "summoned" in it's card text, it nonetheless states that the Special Summon of the fusion monster occurs during the second standby phase after it is activated. "This is considered a fusion summon".

Activation of a card effect does not necessarily mean that the effect resolves right away. In FF case, the effect does not resolve until the second standby phase when the monster is special summoned.

Bottomline- No summon, no effect. Plain and simple.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Quoted: Being chosen and sent to the graveyard for the effect of FF makes the monsters Fusion Material Monsters....

Point one- agreed that being chosen and sending monsters listed for a fusion monster make them "fusion material monsters".

But allow me to reiterate, Future Fusion does not "make" them Fusion Materials. They were Fusion Materials as soon as a Fusion Monster was released that carried their respective names. Before, during and after they are used, they remain Fusion Materials. That doesn't change your second point, however. But the distinction should be noted.

 

[HorusMaster]

But allow me to reiterate, Future Fusion does not "make" them Fusion Materials. They were Fusion Materials as soon as a Fusion Monster was released that carried their respective names. Before, during and after they are used, they remain Fusion Materials. That doesn't change your second point, however. But the distinction should be noted.

Agreed....the point I was trying to make is that once they are sent to the graveyard for a "fusion summon", they are legal targets for cards effects that designate them as "fusion material monsters". I agree that they were still "fusion material monsters", regardless of where they are in the deck, hand or graveyard, but unless they are listed on a fusion monster card, they are just another monster.

All in all, the bottom line is the same....no fusion summon, no effect for Supply...it simply disappears since there was no summon.

 

[Entropy]

Well, I just checked the Japanese ruling, and apparently Supply's OCG text got erratta'd to something like:

FLIP: Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters that were sent to the Graveyard by "Polymerization" to your hand.

But, Entropy, what does that have to do with anything?
Absolutely nothing, since we're playing the TCG. Just saying.