supply + future fusion

[1cup]

a simple verification:

monsters sent from the deck to the grave for future fusion are elegible to be returned to the hand via supply, correct?
(keeping in mind that future fusion is a proper fusion)

Supply
Effect Monster (Warrior / EARTH / 4 Stars / ATK 1300 / DEF 800)

FLIP: Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters that were sent to the Graveyard as a result of a Fusion Summon to your hand.

 

[Maruno]

Well, I just checked the Japanese ruling, and apparently Supply's OCG text got erratta'd to something like:

FLIP: Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters that were sent to the Graveyard by "Polymerization" to your hand.

But, Entropy, what does that have to do with anything?
Absolutely nothing, since we're playing the TCG. Just saying.

Which is ironic, since Polymerization is the only "Fusion Summon card" that does NOT state that it Fusion Summons anything.



It looks like you guys have reached an agreement. Unless Future Fusion resolves fully and Fusion Summons the monster, the Fusion Material Monsters sent by Future Fusion cannot be selected by Supply.

There's no precedent for this kind of thing, and we don't yet have a ruling on this, so honestly the ruling could go either way. The other way makes less sense, of course, but Konami could easily toss a coin and say that's what happens. Let's just hope they consider things first (for once) before rushing to the first answer they think of.

Has anyone actually mentioned this to anyone official yet (Judges' List, email to UDE, etc.)?

 

[Martok]

Fusion Materials are Fusion Materials before, during and after they've been sent to the Graveyard. There's no time that they aren't.

Well, then replace "Fusion Material Monster" by "Monsters used as Fusion Material Monsters".
I thought that this should be simple enough and obvious to anyone, since ANY monster can be used as Fusion Material, and I thought you'd realize that I didn't mean "any monster".
But now it should be understandable, ok?

The issue is whether Supply considers them monsters used "as a result of a Fusion Summon." What DaGuy is trying to point out, is that sending them for an effect that fails to summon anything is not considered "sent to the Graveyard as the result of a Fusion Summon".

And my point was that using the monsters as fusion material monsters makes them eligible for the effect of Supply.
Of course you can go by the letter, but that will lead to the conclusion that sending the monsters must have been a result of the summon, which is never true for Future Fusion, nor for Polymerization and the likes. The summon itself is the very last thing to happen, so if you go by the letter, there are no legal targets for the effects of Supply, anyway. And obviously that's very wrong, so going by ht eletter must have been wrong as well.

It was sent as a result of an effect that never fully resolved or completed, for lack of a better term.

Future Fusion has 2 different non-continuous effects. Once the monsters have been sent to the graveyard and the fusion monster has been selected, the first effect has been resolved successfully.
The effect that special summons a fusion monster of the same name is a new effect. It's not like one incredibly long unbroken effect is busy resolving for 2 turns.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Thank you Martok....I was wondering when someone was going to address that. Like I said earlier, FF is a wierd one that seems to have 3 different effects.

Future Fusion
Continuous Spell

Effect 1: Send, from your Deck to the Graveyard, Fusion Material Monsters that are listed on a Fusion Monster Card, and select that 1 Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck.
<note: The cards are sent to the Graveyard and the Fusion Monster is selected at the resolution (result) of this effect. How is this not sending fusion material monsters to he graveyard as a result of a fusion summon? It doesn't say that it results in a fusion summon, but that they are sent as a result (resolution) of one.>

Efffect 2: Special Summon a Fusion Monster from your Fusion Deck with the same name as the selected Fusion Monster during your 2nd Standby Phase after this card's activation. (This Special Summon is treated as a Fusion Summon.)
<note: the effect hat special summons the monster does not even activate until the second standby phase, UDE ruling:
"¢ "Future Fusion" must remain on the field for the effect to activate. If it is not on the field during the 2nd Standby Phase, then you do not Special Summon the Fusion Monster.
Thus the connection between the fusion (effect 1) and the actual special summon (effect 2) is non-existant.>

Effect 3: When this card is removed from the field, destroy that monster. When the monster is destroyed, destroy this card.

Therefore, if your interpretation of Supply is correct, that the fusion monster (whose material monsters have been used for its fusion) must successfully be summoned in order for it to work, then Supply should not work at all. For they are two seperate activations and resolutions. IMHO.

Man this future fusion messes things up.

 

[skey23]

I love being ignored. It seems to happening quite a bit lately. I wonder why.

I'll reiterate what I stated before. The only monsters you can use for the effect of "Supply" are ones that have been used in the successful Fusion Summon of a Fusion Monster. Afterall, monsters can't be sent to the Graveyard as the result of a Fusion Summon unless there was actually a Fusion Monster Summoned by that effect.

"Future Fusion" does not change this. Just because it has 3 separate effects, it still doesn't change the fact that the monsters are not considered to have been sent to the Graveyard as the result of a Fusion Summon until the Fusion Summon has actually been performed. Plain and simple.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

I would never ignore you master. Nor would I ever rule against you at any premiere event.
<Hmmm, good news! no polyps!>

However.....
skey: "...the monsters are not considered to have been sent to the Graveyard as the result of a Fusion Summon until the Fusion Summon has actually been performed."

If that were the case with Future Fusion, then if the Fusion Summon was NOT succesful, like MSTing FF before the fusion Monster makes it to the field, I should get my fusion material monsters back (that I sent to the graveyard 2 turns ago), just like I do for an unsuccessful fusion with Polymerization, or any other fusion card.

 

[skey23]

No, that is not the case.

With "Polymerization", you only send the material monsters to the Graveyard when "Polymerization" resolves. Once resolved, you immediately Fusion Summon the Fusion Monster. Since the Fusion Summon is successfully completed, the material monsters are now considered to have been used in a Fusion Summon. There is no 'delay' in the actual Fusion Summoning. It happens immediately when the card resolves.

If you negate the activation of "Polymerization", you never send the material monsters to the Graveyard. The material monsters haven't been used for anything.

With "Future Fusion", the material monsters are sent to the Graveyard only when "Future Fusion" resolves. So, if its activation is negated, then you don't send the material monsters to the Graveyard. This is identical to "Polymerization".

Now, the difference between the two is the fact that there is a 2 turn delay before the actual Fusion Summon takes place. Until that Fusion Summon actually takes place, the material monsters haven't been used for anything other than the effect of a Spell Card.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Okay, so since the second effect, the one that actually special summons a fusion monster activates and resolves three turns (two of my standby phases) later, how is it not that although considered a fusion summon, the fusion monster is not brought out by the effect of a spell card, not a fusion of the monsters. (Wow, I reread that and it didn't make sense to even me. Let me try again.....) BTW, I'm not trying to debate at this point, but looking for clarification.

Why is it the two seperate effects activating and resolving seperately plus the caviat that it is not the monster that you selected, but any monster of the same name that gets summoned make it so that the results are still one and the same? In other words, the cards were not sent to the graveyard as a result of a fusion summon, but as a result of a spell card effect. Then, they are (according to how I read your last post) later fused together in the graveyard by the (automatic) activation and resolution of a (albeit the same) spell card effect. By this understanding, you should not be allowed to use Supply at all with Future Fusion because the cards were not sent to the graveyard as a result of a fusion summon, but as a result (resolution) of a spell card, that may or may not result in a fusion summon, but even so, that is a different activation and resolution of the card.

I know, I'm looking at things in a critical logical progression in a game of liquidity. But does that make sense? Even if you believe it wrong, can you understand my dilema and hesitancy to jump on the band wagon?

 

[skey23]

If "Future Fusion" is destroyed before it has the chance to Fusion Summon the Fusion Monster, then the material monsters were not used for the Fusion Summon of a monster. The Fusion Summon never occurred. That means "Supply" no workie workie.

If the Fusion Monster is successfully Fusion Summoned via "Future Fusion" then the material monsters are considered to have been used for a Fusion Summon. That means "Supply" will workie workie.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Okay, but the real question still remains.....
did you get my polyps reference?

 

[skey23]

Ummmmmmm.....no.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Well, then replace "Fusion Material Monster" by "Monsters used as Fusion Material Monsters".
I thought that this should be simple enough and obvious to anyone, since ANY monster can be used as Fusion Material, and I thought you'd realize that I didn't mean "any monster".
But now it should be understandable, ok?

Any monster can be used as a Fusion Material?

And my point was that using the monsters as fusion material monsters makes them eligible for the effect of Supply.
Of course you can go by the letter, but that will lead to the conclusion that sending the monsters must have been a result of the summon, which is never true for Future Fusion, nor for Polymerization and the likes. The summon itself is the very last thing to happen, so if you go by the letter, there are no legal targets for the effects of Supply, anyway. And obviously that's very wrong, so going by ht eletter must have been wrong as well.

I don't quite follow that logic. Going by the letter doesnt lead me to that conclusion, at all. Of course Poly's monsters are sent as a result of a Fusion Summon. I don't think I insinuated any different.

Future Fusion has 2 different non-continuous effects. Once the monsters have been sent to the graveyard and the fusion monster has been selected, the first effect has been resolved successfully.
The effect that special summons a fusion monster of the same name is a new effect. It's not like one incredibly long unbroken effect is busy resolving for 2 turns.

Even so, the fact remains that they were not used for a successful Fusion Summon if the summon never occurs.

 

[Maruno]

Why is it the two seperate effects activating and resolving seperately plus the caviat that it is not the monster that you selected, but any monster of the same name that gets summoned make it so that the results are still one and the same? In other words, the cards were not sent to the graveyard as a result of a fusion summon, but as a result of a spell card effect. Then, they are (according to how I read your last post) later fused together in the graveyard by the (automatic) activation and resolution of a (albeit the same) spell card effect. By this understanding, you should not be allowed to use Supply at all with Future Fusion because the cards were not sent to the graveyard as a result of a fusion summon, but as a result (resolution) of a spell card, that may or may not result in a fusion summon, but even so, that is a different activation and resolution of the card.

I get the point here.

The thing to ask is, why can't Fusion Material Monsters as used by Polymerization be treated as BOTH being sent by a card effect AND being sent because of a Fusion Summon? Both explanations fit the events that have taken place.

The trick is, though, that until the Fusion Summon takes place 2 Standby Phases later, the second label ("sent because of a Fusion Summon") does not apply to the monsters. After the Fusion Summon takes place, then yes, the Fusion Material Monsters have also been sent because of a Fusion Summon. But until then, they've only been sent by a card effect.

That doesn't mean they lose the label of "sent by a card effect" once the Fusion Summon occurs and they gain the "sent because of a Fusion Summon" label. They can have both, if both are applicable (which they are).

Fusion cards are not special cards that aren't treated as Spell Cards. They simply do something that gives the affected monsters an extra label in addition to the "sent by a card effect" label.

 

[HorusMaster]

I love being ignored. It seems to happening quite a bit lately. I wonder why.

I'll reiterate what I stated before. The only monsters you can use for the effect of "Supply" are ones that have been used in the successful Fusion Summon of a Fusion Monster. Afterall, monsters can't be sent to the Graveyard as the result of a Fusion Summon unless there was actually a Fusion Monster Summoned by that effect.

"Future Fusion" does not change this. Just because it has 3 separate effects, it still doesn't change the fact that the monsters are not considered to have been sent to the Graveyard as the result of a Fusion Summon until the Fusion Summon has actually been performed. Plain and simple.

Tell me about it...how many times have I said in my posts, "no fusion summon, no card effect for Supply." The effect clearly stated, "Return 2 Fusion Material Monsters that were sent to the Graveyard as a result of a Fusion Summon to your hand."
Future Fusion selects the fusion monster to be summoned. At this point you are ONLY selecting the monster to be summoned, not "fusing" it. Second standby phase- SUMMON the monster. That's when the effect fully resolves.
How many different ways can you say this? No Fusion Summon, No effect!!!!