The End Of Anubis & Exiled Force

[daleotar]

In the game F.A.Q., in the second paragraph the text about Skill Drain says:

? "Skill Drain" negates the effects of face-up Effect Monsters on the field, but does not negate effects ?that activate in the Graveyard?, such as "Witch of the Black Forest", "Sangan", "Mystic Tomato", "Giant Rat", "Exiled Force", "Sinister Serpent", and "Vampire Lord".

That text says in a clear form that the ?effect? of Exiled Force activates in the graveyard in a very textual form, that which confirmate that as the effect of Exiled Force activates in the graveyard, The End of Anubis negates this effect.

To confirm these text, I say that one thing in many cards is activate the effect, other thing is the cost of effect's activation, and other thing is the activation of the card; if a card have a cost to activate, the player pays first the cost and if the opponent not chain a counter trap, its ?effect? resolves in a correct form, that is to say, first goes the cost and after the activation of the ?effect? of the card, ?that is different that the activation of a card?, that is to say that Exiled Force effect have a cost, and then, if the opponent not chain Divine Wrath, the effect activates normally, and then, at that time, Exiled Force is in the graveyard when the effect of destroy 1 monster on the field is activated.

Please respond me in this forum, because,in tournament many times I have lost because according to the approach of a judge the "effect" of Exiled Force not activates in the graveyard.

Please, is better if an official upperdeck judge responds me, to confirm my question in legal form.

David Tarazona
YU-GI-OH UpperDeck Judge LEVEL 2

Thank you

 

[daivahataka]

because thouse effects arnt "They must be in your graveyard" effect

they just have to be tributed with requirements.

"Each time you or your opponent activates 1 Spell Card, put 1 Spell Counter on this card (max. 3). Tribute this card with 3 Spell Counters on it to Special Summon 1 "Dark Magician" from your hand, Deck, or Graveyard. "

see the effect spefies that it just has to be tributed it doesnt matter to whos graveyard it goes. now if End of Anubis is on the field then oviously you wouldnt get the effect because its finishing off in a graveyard.

but if its going out of play then it wouldnt get negated.

now im going to edit the text so that the owner get the effect and you will notice a big difference.

"Each time you or your opponent activates 1 Spell Card, put 1 Spell Counter on this card (max. 3). You can tribute with 3 spell counters. When this card is tributed with 3 spell counters and goes to your graveyard. Special Summon 1 "Dark Magician" from your hand, Deck, or Graveyard. "

notice a big difference now.

So in short the whole cards which activate in the Graveyard benefit the owner not necessarily the controller generalisation has just gone out the window, and a much smaller number of cards than previously thought activate on the field (since anything which gets tributed for its effect is now a graveyard activation).

 

[-Xe0-]

So in a forum came up another question.
If the effect of exiled force will be negated by End of Anubis, so will this also work on Wave-Motion Cannon? So if i send a Wave-Motion Cannon to the Graveyard to inflict damage to my opponent, will this damage be negated by End of Anubis ??
greetz & thx for reply
Xe0

 

[John Danker]

So in a forum came up another question.
If the effect of exiled force will be negated by End of Anubis, so will this also work on Wave-Motion Cannon? So if i send a Wave-Motion Cannon to the Graveyard to inflict damage to my opponent, will this damage be negated by End of Anubis ??
greetz & thx for reply
Xe0

The activation of Wave Motion Cannon is when you first place it on the field not when it's sent as a cost....as evidenced in the ruling (though it's also a game mechanic for every spell card) which reads:

You can activate "Wave-Motion Cannon" (place it face-up on the field) and send it to the Graveyard during the same turn, but it will not do any damage.

So The End of Anubis would not negate Wave Motion Cannon when it's sent to the graveyard as a cost.

 

[BURN]

If Exiled Force is ruled as being a Graveyard effect how can it get it's effect if it never hits the Graveyard. (Banisher of Light)

You wouldn't get the effect of Sangan if Banisher of Light is on the field.

 

[masterwoo0]

If Exiled Force is ruled as being a Graveyard effect how can it get it's effect if it never hits the Graveyard. (Banisher of Light)

You wouldn't get the effect of Sangan if Banisher of Light is on the field.

It's not a "Graveyard Effect" unless it activates and resolves in the Graveyard.

That would be like saying you can only eat "Bacon" for Breakfast. His card text only says "Tribute this face-up card." It doesnt say that it HAS to go to the Graveyard, but if it does, and The End of Anubis is active, because it will activate in the Graveyard, it will be negated.

If Banisher of the Light is active, and Exiled is used, his effect would activate when removed from play, instead of sent to the Graveyard.

 

[novastar]

Lets use some official "rules" from the Advanced FAQ to display some error in this logic.

"Activation" is when you declare an intent to use a card: flipping a Trap Card face up, announcing that you are using a monster's effect, flipping a face-down Spell Card, and playing a Spell Card from your hand are all examples of activation.

That is Step 1. That determines the location of the effect.

The first kind is activation costs. These are paid when you activate (play) a card. Activation costs cannot be negated by cards that negate the effect of a card.

This would be either Step 3 or 4 of what i previously outlined.

They are payed "when" or "part of" activation not before.

Unfortunately, i can't find any mention of targeting or order, but i didn't expect to, since these are really not comprehensive enough. But it's safe to say that it all occurs as part of activation. What the order is for the purposes of this debate is irrelevent.

"Activation" occurs when you declare, and when you finish targeting and paying cost, it is considered fully activated. This allows for rewind of effect just incase the activation was illegal.

Just some more thoughts

 

[krazykidpsx]

your miss reading or reading to much into it Noavatar.

what they imply with the rule that you posted is that "where the monster ends up when it gets activated. That will be its location of activation"

in short i called this "Location Effect"

for exiled, either where it goes, Graveyard or RFP if there isnt anything that negates it the effect pulls through.

the safes place is RFP at the moment since we do have a card that will negate it if it activates in the graveyard.

While you read, just relax dont think to much into it. just put "a" with "b" and you will notice the answer isnt that hard. there is no logical explenation to this, its just thats what the Policy is stating and thats how the mechanic works.

we never fully put attention into this till This ruling came about. which in all reality we should have been doing a long time ago.

now we know, it makes no sence to many but to the others its just the rule.

like i stated with my example of the color blue being called green. the rule is that the color blue will be called green, not that the color green is the color blue.

get what im saying?, its a forced rule, you have to obey the rule until the rule contradicts itself. and upto this point it isnt doing so. it seems like it does, but it isnt.

you cannot compare 2 tcg's because tcg's tend to come with different rules.

 

[ancient_duelist]

"Activation" occurs when you declare, and when you finish targeting and paying cost, it is considered fully activated.

I think you may have just explained why EF is negated by Anubis. According to this, EF would not be "fully activated" until it is tributed, at which point it is in the graveyard.

Could it be that "activation" is in fact a multi-step process for cards that target and/or have costs and they must be "fully activated" before they are considered activated?

 

[novastar]

Activation is a mutli-step process. But my feeling is that the location of the effect is determined at the beginning, when you declare the use of it, not at the end.

The UDE is suggesting the end, but there are many ways to show, that it is erroneous to suggest that.

 

[squid]

Ive been following this thread and the one on Desert Sunlight vs Creature Swap. I hate to bring this up, since it looks like you all are about 2 steps from meltdown, but...

the question that ChaosRuler put forth about the Skilled Magicians do still seem to be in conflict.

If we are to assume, at this point, (and with no clear official word on the mechanics) that activation of an effect is a multistep process, then the final step in the activation of the SDM/SWM would occur from whichever location that the card ended up in.

Currently, from what Ive seen, If Player A snatches Player B's Skilled Dark Magician and activates its effect, by tributing the SDM with 3 counters, that Player A will recieve the benefits of the effect, despite the fact that SDM ended up in the Graveyard of Player B.

Im leaving out issues concerning End of Anubis being on the field, but according to what is coming about (here in this conversation) it looks like there are 2 opposing forces about to collide concerning the mechanics of activating a card.

If Im to rule according to both instances being correct, I may be lined up and shot by those listening to me.

Somewhere along the lines, it seems like there will have to be a change in either the Exiled vs Anubis ruling or in the Skilled Magician rulings...along with a defined and clearer view on the order of steps that occurs in activation.

Is this where it stands, or have I yet again failed to grasp some basic? -_-'

 

[daivahataka]

Ive been following this thread and the one on Desert Sunlight vs Creature Swap. I hate to bring this up, since it looks like you all are about 2 steps from meltdown, but...

the question that ChaosRuler put forth about the Skilled Magicians do still seem to be in conflict.

If we are to assume, at this point, (and with no clear official word on the mechanics) that activation of an effect is a multistep process, then the final step in the activation of the SDM/SWM would occur from whichever location that the card ended up in.

Currently, from what Ive seen, If Player A snatches Player B's Skilled Dark Magician and activates its effect, by tributing the SDM with 3 counters, that Player A will recieve the benefits of the effect, despite the fact that SDM ended up in the Graveyard of Player B.

Im leaving out issues concerning End of Anubis being on the field, but according to what is coming about (here in this conversation) it looks like there are 2 opposing forces about to collide concerning the mechanics of activating a card.

If Im to rule according to both instances being correct, I may be lined up and shot by those listening to me.

Somewhere along the lines, it seems like there will have to be a change in either the Exiled vs Anubis ruling or in the Skilled Magician rulings...along with a defined and clearer view on the order of steps that occurs in activation.

Is this where it stands, or have I yet again failed to grasp some basic? -_-'

I posted to the Judgelist about the Skilled Dark/White Magician issue when they gave the ruling on EF Vs. EoA (Tuesday, see post #90 in this thread), so far nothing back. The text is identical (barring the necessity of 3 counters) so the rulings should be the same, yet, currently, they don't appear to be (there may be some mechanic that we've yet to hear anything about).
Think either they're double checking with Konami, or else they're swamped under with Q's about this new ruling and want to try compile one answer to them all rather than have a huge string of posts (like here ).

 

[novastar]

Well then i'll gladly say it as clear and concise as possible for squid .

Activation is a most definately multi-step process, i can gaurantee you that. The fact that Exiled Force involves both a Tribute (cost) and Targeting shows clearly that multiple events can and do occur during the activation of a card or effect.

Now having said that, if you quickly look over the steps i showed, the reason the controller is supposed to gain control of the effect in the case of Tribute effects such as these, is because the location that the effect is coming from is determined right at the very beginning, during Step 1 when you infact declare the activation of the effect.

The effect and the object (Exiled) separate from themselves, so Exiled happily strolls off to the Graveyard, while the effect itself remains on the Chain Block and from the field. Since the location of the effect was from the previous controllers Zone, the effect belongs to whoever controlled it last.

The EoA vs. Exiled ruling is in direct conflict with this rule. A rule that has existed in YGO for a loooooong time.

Bottom Line: if they rule that Exiled activates in the Graveyard, then by rules and mechanics the OWNER would always control the effect because he/she controls the location. Which is not how Exiled is supposed to work.

Hope that helps squid

 

[daivahataka]

Bottom Line: if they rule that Exiled activates in the Graveyard, then by rules and mechanics the OWNER would always control the effect because he/she controls the location. Which is not how Exiled is supposed to work.

I'm left worried that perhaps this is where they'll decide to amend the game mechanics as this would really cause havoc, "Graveyard" may have to be errata'd to "your Graveyard" on many cards.

 

[novastar]

Forget about ammending card text.

Ammend the ruling... problem solved.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Bottom Line: if they rule that Exiled activates in the Graveyard, then by rules and mechanics the OWNER would always control the effect because he/she controls the location.

I'd have to disagree with that.

The graveyard activates Sangan's effect. But exiled force's effect is only activated while it's in the graveyard.

I do see a little difference.

 

[krazykidpsx]

nah because there are various other cards that do similar actions.

im retreiving from my statements and wait for a final word from the list.

if they end up not responding then i wont care for it, Ill just make sure that if im playing against somebody with one, i use Smashing Grounds on it and get rid of it.or better yet Hammer Shot.

 

[novastar]

I'd have to disagree with that.

The graveyard activates Sangan's effect. But exiled force's effect is only activated while it's in the graveyard.

I do see a little difference.

You have the right to dissagree...

But know this, when End of Anubis's text talk about "negate the effects of card that activate in the Graveyard" it is specifically talking about the announcement or declaration of effect.

That's what it means by "activate" = declaration of effect

(In the case of Triggers, it means the location of the object at the time the effect Triggers, or in otherwords the event occurs)

 

[papewaio]

On the issue on who gets the effect for either Exiled of Skilled Dark Magician, here is a bit from the ruling of apprentice magician:

Because "Apprentice Magician"'s effect is not a Graveyard effect, the controller of "Apprentice Magician" at the time it is destroyed as a result of battle gets its effect. So if I take control of my opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then I Special Summon, not the original owner[/]

A "graveyard effect" is one that has to go to the graveyard to activate. That is different from an effect that activates off of the field, either in the graveyard or in the RFG.

Kevin Tewart did not state that it was a graveyard effect, but rather that is was an effect that activated in the graveyard.

So if you look at the effect of Apprentice magician and SDM, it is the controller that gets the effect because they met a condition to activate that effect, i.e. monster getting destroyed in battle, or tributing with tokens. No where does it say on these cards that they must go to the graveyard to activate like the other searchers do, i.e. Sangan, Witch, Tomato etc.

Exiled is same as SDM. The controller gets the effect because the met the conditions to activate the effect.

You pay the cost to activate the card, which is why when you play a card like divine wrath which negates the activation and effect of a monster, the player still had to pay the cost.

So you pay the cost of Exiled Force, which is to tribute it. Once the cost is paid, the effect can be activated. Since Exiled Force was tributed, it is now in the graveyard, hence why it effect is activating in the graveyard. If Banisher of the Light is in play, once Exiled Force is tributed, it is RFG, and it will activate in the RFG area.

 

[krazykidpsx]

we know this, but it isnt activating in the graveyard, the effect activates on the field then moves out to conclude.
ude states tha Exiled is a Graveyard effect it isnt.

 

[novastar]

Kevin Tewart did not state that it was a graveyard effect, but rather that is was an effect that activated in the graveyard.

I keep hearing this over and over.

(this is not directed to you in anyway papwaio)

What is the difference? It's not a Graveyard Effect but it's activated in the Graveyard? Don't people see the silliness in this statement?

This seems to be an attempt to rationalize a ruling made by Kevin that is definately incorrect. These kinds of statements only lead to more self-confusion.