The old problem... Response window!

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Dr Sin

New Member
Okay, I admit: It's kind of scaring me.

And it's a old discussion, that doesn't have a definitive answer yet. And (worst thing) it will increase...

The old (and sometimes boring) response window thing. As Gadgets finally hit the stores, I believe cards that can cause trouble regarding this issue will be more played: EC, for example.
It's now a common, and help Gadgets, since it acts like a much (and really much) less powered Shrink to us (not because of it's effect, but because it makes possible little Gadgets kill in battle things like Monarchs and big monsters).
So the old scenario came to mind:

TP is in his Battle Step, with 1 face-up Green Gadget, 1 card in hand (EC) and no set cards. NTP has 1 Zaborg in attack position, 1 set s/t (Sak Armor) and no cards in hand.
TP declares his GG is attacking Zaborg and passes. NTP passes too (assuming opponent is doing this because he has Pot of Avarice in hand, and need one more monster in the grave... waste his Sak then would be a bad play).
1st problem: some people say BS is imeddiately ended, because both passed. I believe BS doesn't end yet, because multiple chains are allowed in this phase (I will not go on and put more reasons... this is enough right now)

Assuming BS they are still in BS, now TP activates his EC, targeting Zaborg (changing postion effect) and NTP tries to activate Sak at this point.
2nd problem: Again I ask, is this legal? I believe it's not, because they are in a non-response window, that is not directly linked to the attack, so cards like Sak, WRuin, Magic Cylinder, Mirror Force can not be activated. But the opposite argument also exists, even after both passed, there is still a connection to the attack, so Sak can still be activated.
The problem is the lack of an official answer...

What do you think?

Thanks in advance and sorry to be asking this again...
 
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In other words, chocoman, a Phase doesn't end until both players agree to end it. Phases don't proceed on their own, (in any TCG that I know of, come to think of it.) Players have complete control over when one ends and the next begins.

Say you want to jam your opponent's field on his turn with Ojama Tokens. At his Standby Phase he has priority. You ask him if is going to activate anything. He says no, and that passes it to you. You activate a set Ojama Trio. He can now chain to that affect or pass. When no more effects are added to this chain you started, you resolve the chain as normal.

Now at this point, the chain is over and you've successfully summoned three Ojama Tokens to your opponent's field. But just because this chain is over doesn't mean the Standby Phase automatically ends. Your opponent can still activate something. And if he chooses not to activate anything, you can activate something yourself. If you choose to pass again, it still doesn't ends the phase. He could now activate something, after having some time to ascertain your strategy.

This is what you would call the pass/pass. All that a pass does is pass priority to your opponent; the person's right to activate something or perform a legal action. It has nothing to do with conclusion of a phase, because that's an entirely different set of questions. If your opponent asks if you want to end the phase and you say no, then the phase doesn't end until you agree with him and viceversa.

Now some people don't get that, because they in their mind they see two players passing back and forth to each other infinitely with not end in site. But that's simply will never happen when, aside from the rules against stalling gameplay, that this is merely a courtesy element to make sure neither player tramples over the other's right to activate effects.

So in the scenario above you can activate an Ojama Trio, let it resolve. Activate an Compulsory Evacuation Device targeting one of his tokens, and let it resolve. Then activate another Ojama Trio and let it resolve to effectively fill your opponent's field with five Ojama Tokens. all during his Standby Phase. As long as you follow the rules of priority, you can do it all during a single phase.
 
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Thanks for the complement DJ. And it was put in a very didatic manner.

But I ask you, and once more to all:

In the 1st case (in the beginning of the thread), TP attacks and passes, NTP passes too. Now NTP activates Enemy Controller, do you think NTP can still activate his Sak?

Thanks again
 
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Well, no. But the reason for that lies in Sakuretsu Armor's activation requirements. Attack declaration.

Attack declaration is like a summon, it doesn't resolve, nor is it like a phase where events take place within it. It happens once, the Turn Player responds to it or passes, the non-Turn Player responds to it or passes. It's not a phase, but an act. Once the act is over, it's over. The attack itself on the other hand is something different. This is a game phase. Multiple things can happen in it.
 
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Yeah, I know it's a completely different thing, I was just taking the opportunity to ask the original question to you.
And I asked because many people still say that the last thing to occur was still the attack, so Sak could be activated.
But my point of view is exactly what you said: both had the opportunity to respond to the attack with appropriate cards and passed. Now (in the non response window) cards like Sak or Cylinder cannot be activated, because, like you said, it was an act. There is simply no reason to believe an act creates "multiple response opportunities".
Thanks.
 
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so conclusivly you can say that you (TP and NTP) have got only one chance to respond to the intent/declaration of attacking and that after a dubble pass the response window for that attack intent/declaration has closed and that cards like sakuretsu armor will then "miss the timing" eventhough the declaration was the last thing to happen (aside from the dubble pass).
 
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yes, that's exactly how some of us believe it functions.
But it's not official and eventhough it makes sense, one single post by UDE can state the exact opposite... But unfortunetely they seem to ignore this whole point (which I believe is quite relevant).
 
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Duelmaster is quoted to have said:
I don't think UDE has anything to do with it. If Konami says something they will have to do that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know. You may be right. Maybe I'm accusing the wrong one... But it still leaves us with no official answer.
And I can be wrong, but it doesn't seem to hard to solve this problem: a phone call, some opinions, a majority conclusion, end of the story.
 
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chocoman said:
so conclusivly you can say that you (TP and NTP) have got only one chance to respond to the intent/declaration of attacking and that after a dubble pass the response window for that attack intent/declaration has closed and that cards like sakuretsu armor will then "miss the timing" eventhough the declaration was the last thing to happen (aside from the dubble pass).
Click to expand...

If both players passed after Attack Declaration, the last thing to happen in the game wasn't the Attack Declaration, but the "resolution" of an "empty chain".

Think of it like that, that might save you some confusion.

IMO there's not much need for an official answer since Kevin has agreed to this "theory" more than once on different events. Since he hasn't changed his mind lately, this is still the "most official" way it can be handled.

Konami doesn't want to see it documented, so just use common sense and the argument that Kevin agreed to it.

Enough for me to follow this theory.

soul :cool
 
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