The Rulings Headache a.k.a. Darkness Approaches

[Returner]

"Discard 2 cards from your hand. Select 1 face-up monster and flip it face-down, but do not change its battle position."

Getting official rulings on this card is about as easy as walking on water. So let's just get to the point- can Darkness Approaches be used to activate a flip effect the same turn a flip effect monster is summoned or set?

Yes, it's the only card that allows what would otherwise be known as rulings blasphemy in the game- that is the condition of a face-down attack position monster. But along with an utter slap to the face of judges, there are no rulings save for the opinions of so-called "experts" in rulings (whom by the way, should concede to seniority and experience).

The primary argument against Darkness Approaches is that a monster cannot be flip summoned during the same turn it is set. However, a flip summon is equivalent to a manual change in battle position, as recognized by the acceptance of the ruling that a player cannot manually change a flip summoned monster during the same turn and a monster's battle position cannot be changed manually if it has already been changed manually, attacked, or is summoned during the same turn.

Ergo, the reason why you can't flip summon a monster the same turn it has been set on the field is because you cannot manually change the battle position of a monster the same turn it is set.

Darkness Approaches, therefore, does not violate this, because, even if a monster is summoned in attack position then flipped face-down by Darkness Approaches, it's battle position remains the same.

Does anyone have some sound logic to help explain what you can legally do with a face-down attack position monster?

 

[densetsu_x]

Believe it or not, Darkness Approaches is actually a lot simpler than you are making it out to seem and except for the battle position not changing (and being a normal spell card), it is mechanically the same as Book of Moon? How do you ask?

If I summon a monster this turn and it is targeted with Book of Moon, can I flip it back up this turn? (No, because the monster was just summoned this turn).

If the monster was set and I Flip Summon it and it gets Book of Mooned, can I flip it back up? (No, because a Flip Summon is a kind of summon and as stated, monsters cannot manually be flipped up the turn they are summoned).

If the monster was already face up on the field, and I Book of Moon it (like a Dekoichi), can I flip it up again? Well, let's assume it's Main Phase 1 so I haven't attacked yet nor changed it's position prior. In this case, yes I can flip summon it.

Darkness Approaches will work the same way. If I normal summon Morphing Jar and then play Darkness Approaches on it, will I be able to flip it back up? No because this was turn that it had been summoned. (Seeing the similarity here?)

Say I brought Morphing Jar to the field last turn curtousy of Giant Rat. I play Darkness Approaches on it to flip it down. Can I flip it back up now? Sure since it wasn't the turn it was summoned so I am allowed to do so. Note in this case I still cannot put Morphing Jar in defense position. Why you may wonder? Because I still Flip Summoned him and since that would mean he had a kind of summon performed on him this turn, I am not allowed to manually change the battle position.

So really, when you look at the underlying mechanic of when you can make manual battle position changes, you'll see that Darkness Approaches really isn't all that confusing.

 

[Digital Jedi]

The primary argument against Darkness Approaches is that a monster cannot be flip summoned during the same turn it is set. However, a flip summon is equivalent to a manual change in battle position, as recognized by the acceptance of the ruling that a player cannot manually change a flip summoned monster during the same turn and a monster's battle position cannot be changed manually if it has already been changed manually, attacked, or is summoned during the same turn.

Ergo, the reason why you can't flip summon a monster the same turn it has been set on the field is because you cannot manually change the battle position of a monster the same turn it is set.

Essentially, this has less to do with Battle Position changes and more to do with the restrictions on summoning. The confusion stems from the fact that the rule book and the FAQ describes a Flip Summon as having a DEF-to-ATK Position change. Naturally, it wouldn't include information about a singular effect that isn't at all a common occurrence.

People site the fact that it says "A Flip Summon only occurs when you 'manually' change the position of a monster in this manner." But reading on, the reason it uses the word "only" is because the instructions are trying to clarify that a flip from from effect and a flip from a summon are two different things, and then it notes the dissimilar results of each. It's not meant to clarify something as oddball as whether an Attack Position to Attack Position flip is a Flip Summon.

But with that said, lets do some extrapolation here. The one thing that all our rulings and rules do make clear, are that there are only two kinds of flips. One as a result of an effect. The other as a result of a summon. No where, at this point, do any of the rulings indicate that a flip can occur any other way. There is nothing to indicate that there is such a thing as a "summon-less" or "effect-less" flip. Which is what the Darkness Approaches scenario would have to be in order for the flip in that instance to be legal.

I prefer not to think that this is an instance of a card existing outside of established rules. I prefer to think of this as something quite basic. Rules make it so that we can't put a card in Face-Down Attack Position, so a Flip Summon would never have that starting point otherwise. But when a effect changes that, does the basic concept of a Flip Summon change? If an effect like Level Limit - Area B forces cards into Defence Position, is their any doubt that a manual flip is not a Flip Summon? My reasoning is that if a manual flip from DEF-to-DEF Position is still a Flip Summon, then a manual flip from ATK-to-ATK shouldn't be any different.

 

[densetsu_x]

DJ, I'm really not sure what you were trying to go with here.

First off, a monster can be Flip Summoned, Flipped face up by a card effect, or Flipped face up by Battle (the latter being your "Summonless" Flip, though really I'm not sure why you're making up terms here).

Second your Level Limit - Area B example is wrong. When you Flip Summon a monster, even if it is 4* or higher, the monster does end up in Face-up Attack position before Level Limit - Area B does anything. You don't just flip it from defense to defense (after all, what if the monster is Horus LV6 or Spell Canceller? 1 will ignore LL-AB and the other will negate it).
Yes, Darkness Approaches clearly is a case of the "Card overriding Game Mechanics because of what it does". But everything from your extrapolation point onward really just doesn't make much sense in this instance.

 

[CPMillerWV]

There is nothing to indicate that there is such a thing as a "summon-less" or "effect-less" flip.

Ceasefire. Sorry, had to add that.

Also, Can that card attack WITHOUT being flipped? :-: Can it attack at all?

I mean, it states that a card in face down defence is flipped in the damage step, how about if attacked face down atk?? Hmmm.

I see some fun arguing this point!

 

[densetsu_x]

*sigh*

Again, I will have to refer to something I've mentioned in a few other posts of late.

"Common Sense".

No, a face-down monster cannot declare an attack.

Yes, a face-down monster is flipped face up when attacked.

Yes, Darkness Approaches is the oddball card in the game, doing something that nothing else does, but really people. Do you really think that mechanically a face-down attack position monster suddenly gains all these other abilities? If anything the lack of rulings on the card should indicate that aside from the battle position it would be the same as anything else that's face down.

We don't need to debate/argue something just for the sake of debate/arguement.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Ceasefire. Sorry, had to add that.

Also, Can that card attack WITHOUT being flipped? :-: Can it attack at all?

I mean, it states that a card in face down defence is flipped in the damage step, how about if attacked face down atk?? Hmmm.

I see some fun arguing this point!

I think you misunderstand my meaning of "effect-less". I'm not talking about a Flip Effect that doesn't get to activate. There's plenty of cards that do that. Ceasefire, The Spell Absorbing Life & VW-Tiger Catapult to name a few.

I'm talking about the event that flips the card. The card either gets flipped by a summon (i.e. a manual change), by an effect, and one other instance I forgot to mention before, by an attack. But there is no instance where a card is just filed with none of these being the culprit. An ATK-to-ATK flip might not be manual position change, but it should still be a summon. Just like a DEF-to-DEF flip counts as a Flip Summon.

And no, there's nothing to suggest that face-down card would be able to do anything that a face-down card can't normally do. Remember, a face-down card is considered to have no stats. Not ATK, not DEF, no Attribute or Type or anything to indicate what kind of card it is other then a monster. When you attack a face-down monster, ATK and DEF comparisons aren't made until the card is flipped face-up. If that doesn't happen (e.g. Sasuke Samurai), then no ATK/DEF comparisons can be made. Then it stands to reason, that aside from the fact that face-downs can't really do anything, is that a face-down could make an attack with nothing to determine what to attack with.

 

[densetsu_x]

Just like a DEF-to-DEF flip counts as a Flip Summon.

A Flip Summon is ALWAYS a manual action done by the player that mechanically ends with the card in face up attack position. The only DEF-to-DEF flip that you have is by card effect (Ceasefire, Desert Sunlight) or by battle, neither of which is a Flip Summon.

 

[Digital Jedi]

A Flip Summon is ALWAYS a manual action done by the player that mechanically ends with the card in face up attack position. The only DEF-to-DEF flip that you have is by card effect (Ceasefire, Desert Sunlight) or by battle, neither of which is a Flip Summon.

You taking me out of context. Effects that force cards to stay in Defense Position, but don't restrict their face orientaion, will result in a DEF-to-DEF Flip Summon, and still count as a Flip Summon.

 

[densetsu_x]

No, what you are saying is wrong.

There is no Def to Def Flip Summon. The card ends in Attack Position at the end of a Flip Summon. Period.

Other cards on the field MAY end up changing the battle position so the card ends up in defense position, but that is completely irrelevant when discussing what a Flip Summon is. If you are play it properly, you put the monster in attack position after a flip summon, and then wait to see if the summon is negated. If not, and the card is affected by something like Level Limit - Area B or Stumbling (though in Stumbling's case since that uses the chain, it's possible for another effect in the chain to remove it from the field first like say Mobius), you put the card in defense position.

So please stop trying to combine things into 1 scenario because the generalization does not lead to a correct statement.

 

[Digital Jedi]

No, what you are saying is wrong.

There is no Def to Def Flip Summon. The card ends in Attack Position at the end of a Flip Summon. Period.

Other cards on the field MAY end up changing the battle position so the card ends up in defense position, but that is completely irrelevant when discussing what a Flip Summon is. If you are play it properly, you put the monster in attack position after a flip summon, and then wait to see if the summon is negated. If not, and the card is affected by something like Level Limit - Area B or Stumbling (though in Stumbling's case since that uses the chain, it's possible for another effect in the chain to remove it from the field first like say Mobius), you put the card in defense position.

So please stop trying to combine things into 1 scenario because the generalization does not lead to a correct statement.

Okay, then. I don't agree. I see it as a direct to direct change. But please don't instruct me on what I can't and can't combine. If my logic is flawed, deconstruct it. Don't tell me to stop...being wrong. Because that's kind of difficult to know before hand. Not to mention non-conducive to discussion. Aside from that, my viewpoint on the matter supports your argument.

 

[densetsu_x]

I already "deconstructed" it. Twice. Both times you ignored the key point here.

The mechanics of a Flip Summon involves taking a face-down monster (usually defense position, but with Darkness Approaches, it could be face-down attack position) and placing it in face-up attack position.

There, done. Fin.

There is no way mechanically in the game to Flip Summon a monster such that at the end of the Flip Summon I am in face-up defense position. This is the point you keep repeating that is the "wrong" part.

For a detailed example, let's say I have Level Limit - Area B on the field. I have a set Pyramid Turtle.

1) I attempt to Flip Summon Pyramid Turtle. I do so by picking up the card and placing him into face-up attack position.
2) The window of opportunity begins for cards like Solemn Judgment and Forced Back to negate said attempt at a Flip Summon. We'll assume that both players pass here.
3) Since both players passed in 2, my Flip Summon is successful.
4) Now that a summon is successful, continuous effects that do not use the chain now activate and resolve. Level Limit - Area B will shift Pyramid Turtle into defense position.

Note that even though Pyramid Turtle ended up in defense position, it still went from Defense to ATTACK back to Defense position. There was no "Def to def" flip.

Similar example but with Stumbling. I have Stumbling on the field which changes any summoned monster to defense position (Normal, Special, or Flip).
1) I attempt to Flip Summon my set Armed Ninja (FLIP: Select 1 Spell card on the field and destroy it...) He is now in face-up attack position now.
2) We both pass on negating the Flip Summon.
3) His flip summon is successful and look! He has a FLIP effect which will activate. However, since a monster has been flip summoned, Stumbling's effect activates. To resolve this, let's put Stumbling's effect as chain link 1 and Armed Ninja as Chain Link 2 (targeting hmm... Stumbling!)
4) Armed Ninja's effect resolves destroying Stumbling.
5) Stumbling's effect shifts Armed Ninja into defense position... uh oh wait a moment. Stumbling was destroyed and since it's a continuous spell card, it would need to still be on the field to resolve. I guess this link in the chain fizzles and Armed Ninja stays in attack position.

Does this put things in a better light now? Yes we all know other effects on the field can adjust things in the game. But again for the last time:

Flip Summons end with the monster in face-up Attack Position. To say anything else would be telling people the wrong thing.

 

[Returner]

Interesting responses...Densetsu takes the approach of arguing Darkness Approaches is mechanically identical to Book of Moon. While this is a very sensible argument, I'm still not entirely convinced Darkness Approaches works similarly to Book of Moon.

I understand that a monster can't be flip summoned the same turn it is set on the field (or when targetted by Book of Moon the same turn it is summoned). However, is the reason a flip summon can't be performed on a monster the same turn it is played on the field because the battle position would be manually changed? Or is the argument that a player cannot Normal Summon or set a monster more than once per turn the ruling in question? Which intrinsic game mechanic are we dealing with? Or is it neither mechanic, some other dogma in dueling that is not clearly defined or documented anywhere?

I'll use the ruling of another card to make my argument. This card is Ultimate Offering. The text states-

"By paying 500 Life Points, Normal Summon or Set 1 extra monster. You can only activate this effect during your Main Phase or your opponent's Battle Phase."

The specific ruling on Ultimate Offering in regards to Flip Effects is no longer on the Individual Card Rulings page or on Netrep. However, it is understood that a monster cannot be flip summoned after being set on the field even while Ultimate Offering is on the field. Why? If a flip summon during the same turn a monster is played on the field violates the 1 Normal Summon or Set per turn rule, Ultimate Offering would override this and the aforementioned ruling would not exist.

But it does. A player cannot flip summon a monster the same turn it is summoned while Ultimate Offering is on the field for a different reason. What could it be? A monster's battle position cannot be changed the same turn it is summoned, that is, the turn a monster is played on the field is treated as a manual change in battle position. This is logical. If a player could summon as many monsters as he/she wanted in their turn, why not flip summon monsters too? Following this reasoning, flip summoning is concerned primarily with change in battle position.

As clearly stated in the effect of Darkness Approaches, battle position is not changed. Therefore, with all the evidence cited above, it appears, using Darkness Approaches, it is legal to flip summon a monster the same turn it is played on the field.

 

[CPMillerWV]

Similar example but with Stumbling. I have Stumbling on the field which changes any summoned monster to defense position (Normal, Special, or Flip).
1) I attempt to Flip Summon my set Armed Ninja (FLIP: Select 1 Spell card on the field and destroy it...) He is now in face-up attack position now.
2) We both pass on negating the Flip Summon.
3) His flip summon is successful and look! He has a FLIP effect which will activate. However, since a monster has been flip summoned, Stumbling's effect activates. To resolve this, let's put Stumbling's effect as chain link 1 and Armed Ninja as Chain Link 2 (targeting hmm... Stumbling!)
4) Armed Ninja's effect resolves destroying Stumbling.
5) Stumbling's effect shifts Armed Ninja into defense position... uh oh wait a moment. Stumbling was destroyed and since it's a continuous spell card, it would need to still be on the field to resolve. I guess this link in the chain fizzles and Armed Ninja stays in attack position.

I hate to interupt; however, above, in item 3, you would have sim. effects activating. I think that the turn player's effect would become link 1 with ntp being link 2. Thus, stumbling would resolve 1st.

Also, from rule book:

​

n

Flip Summon

The act of flipping a face-down Defense Position Monster into

face-up Attack Position (without using a card effect) is called a

"Flip Summon". When you Flip Summon, you cannot change the

monster to face-up Defense Position. A Monster Card cannot

be Flip Summoned in the same turn that it was Set onto the

field. You cannot use a monster's effect until it is face-up.

So, here is the deffination of a Flip Summon from the Rule Book.

 

[masterwoo0]

As clearly stated in the effect of Darkness Approaches, battle position is not changed. Therefore, with all the evidence cited above, it appears, using Darkness Approaches, it is legal to flip summon a monster the same turn it is played on the field.

Now you're arguing for the sake of argument.

You are allowed one Manual Movement of a Monster when it is on the field from a previous turns Summon. If you JUST summoned a monster and activate Darkness Approaches on the same turn the monster is summoned, you do not have a manual position change, which would still be considered "face-up" from "face-down".

It has nothing to do with Battle Position, and everything to do with Manual Movement of a Monster. A Flip Summon is a Manual Position Change. There's no if, ands, or buts about that. Once you summon a monster to the field, you cannot manually change the monsters position. If it gets flipped face-down, barring any effects being further activated, how else are you going to get that monster back face-up in the same turn??

You can't because it requires a manual movement. Darkness Approaches does not change this. The only thing it changed is how a monster changes from face-up Attack Position to face-down Attack Position. No other card does that.

 

[densetsu_x]

There are a few things wrong with your logic.

1) Flip Summoning a monster has no bearing on the 1 "Normal Summon or Set" rule. That is stated in the player's handbook. If you had 5 set monsters on the field (say from a Cyber Jar flip from your opponent last turn), you can Flip Summon all 5 if you wish this turn and then still tribute 1 or 2 off for a Normal Summon or Set.

2) Ultimate Offering (and the newly released Double Summon) allow for extra Normal Summons and Sets per turn for monsters from your hand. These monsters though still must follow the mechanics of a monster that is Normal Summoned/Set and therefore also irrelevant to your argument since it doesn't give any special abilities to the monsters summoned.

3) Position Change is not the only issue as to whether you can Flip Summon a monster. If you have a face down monster that you are considering Flip Summoning, it must pass all of these conditions:

a) Was the monster summoned this turn?
b) Did the monster attack this turn?
c) Did you already already manually change the battle position this turn?

If the answers to any of these are YES then NO you cannot Flip Summon the monster. So your very statement that you are using Darkness Approaches on a monster that was summoned this turn means you answered YES to the very first thing which means no you cannot Flip Summon said monster this turn.

 

[densetsu_x]

I hate to interupt; however, above, in item 3, you would have sim. effects activating. I think that the turn player's effect would become link 1 with ntp being link 2. Thus, stumbling would resolve 1st.

I'm the turn player controlling both effects. Both Manditory. Hence why I put Stumbling as Link 1.

 

[skey23]

The limitation placed on Flip Summoning a Monster the same turn it was Summoned has nothing to do with Battle Position changes. It has to do with the simple fact that the monster was summoned that turn. That's it. Plain and simple.

Everybody is making way too much out of this.

Take this 'highly unlikely' situation into account....

P1 as "Light of Intervention" active.
P2 attempts to set "Morphing Jar", but can't, so they end up Summoning it in face-up Defense Position.
P2 then activates "Heavy Storm" (no chains and all Spells/Traps are now destroyed).
P2 then activates "Book of Moon" targeting "Morphing Jar" (no chains and "Morphing Jar" is now in face-down Defense Position").
Can P2 Flip-Summon "Morphing Jar"?

Of course not! Why? Because it was Summoned this same turn. Did it's battle position change? No. Does that have any bearing on the answer? NO!


And, just for the record. A Flip Summon is the act of taking a face-down monster (attack or defense) and flipping it over and placing it into face-up Attack Position on the field. There is no other way to perform a Flip Summon at this particular point in time with this game.

 

[Returner]

As quoted from the official Advanced Gameplay FAQ:

"[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A "manual" change. This is when you use your once-per-turn battle position change on a monster, during your Main Phase 1 or 2, to change it from attack position to defense position or vice versa. This includes a Flip Summon. There are some restrictions on when you can do this (see below)..........

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A "manual" change can only be performed during your Main Phase 1 or 2. There are 3 exceptions that will prevent you from "manually" changing a monster's battle position:

Exception #1: You cannot "manually" change the battle position of a monster if it declared an attack that turn (even if the attack was negated or a replay occurred).

Exception #2: You cannot "manually" change the battle position of a monster if it was Summoned or Set that turn by the turn player.

Exception #3: You cannot "manually" change the battle position of a monster if its battle position was already changed "manually" that turn (including if it was Flip Summoned).[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"

The above clearly has to do with changes in battle position. A Flip Summon is treated as a change in battle position. Except in the case of Darkness Approaches, a Flip Summon IS ALWAYS a change in battle position. Here's where Darkness Approaches is special. It ISN'T a change in battle position.

As for manually changing a monster's position the same turn it is summoned or set- see exception #2. The wording clearly states battle position cannot manually be changed. Darkness Approaches specifically states in its effect: "do not change it's battle position."

Why is Flip Summoning a monster being treated as a seperate condition of manually changing a monster's battle position? Because a monster is flipped face-up, is it's battle position changed? The rulings only prohibit a flip summon during the same turn a monster is played on the field because of Exception #2.

Skey...your example, again, uses Book of Moon, which has a different effect from Darkness Approaches. In your example, the monster is summoned and it's battle position IS changed during the same turn. The player would be manually changing the battle position of Morphing Jar from defense to attack during the same turn it is played.

1. Morphing Jar is summoned in face-up attack position.
2. Darkness Approaches is activated. Morphing Jar is now in face-down attack position.
3. Morphing Jar is flipped face-up by the turn player.

When did Morphing Jar change battle position? It didn't. Where is the manual change in battle position? No where, the battle position was not changed. But it was flip summoned! And? Read exception # 2. Battle position? Didn't change. Flip summoned? Exception #2. Manual changes only have to do with Battle Position. But...where's the problem? Darkness Approaches says don't change battle position! Ahh...so then, why can't I manually flip summon a monster during the same turn it's summoned? Because you change it's battle position. Wait. No you don't. Explain that.
[/font]
[/font]

 

[densetsu_x]

You would think that since you have 3 different people going into more explanation beyond what's merely in the Rulebook that either a) we must have some idea what we are talking about or b) we're all a bunch of idiots. Let me give you a hint about this game. There is a LOT more to the mechanics of things beyond what it printed. Why is that? Because the rules are to try to explain things as simply as possible to people so they can understand how to play most things without getting into every nit-picky exception.

Where does the extra information come from? Some of it is the ever famous "Because Konami/UDE Said So." Some comes from what Judges are told but for 1 reason or another it isn't publically released. You think that what's in the rulebook on Priority is all there is to the mechanic and that it's a complete description? Try again. Heck the Damage Step Sub-Steps aren't even completely mentioned in the Rulebook either. Yet these are accepted in the gameplay and those who know explain it to those who don't to the best of the ability.

Now if you further noticed, your "manual flip" rules were being expanded upon by all of us. So again, obviously we know something or we're idiots.

Your answer is: You cannot Flip Summon a monster the same turn it is otherwise Normal, Special, Flip Summoned or Set.

Whether you choose to accept the answer or not is not my problem. If you don't like it, you could always try the UDE Forums

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/COMMUNITY/forums/18/ShowForum.aspx

and see if you get answer you like better there. Or if you're a judge, go ask Curtis the question.

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/op/community/forums/default.aspx

Cause really at this point it just feels like as Woo0 mentioned, you're arguing for the sake of arguing until you get the answer you want to hear. What I do know is that neither Woo0, skey, nor myself are idiots and unless they do revise the mechanics behind a flip summon, our answers won't change either.