The Rulings Headache a.k.a. Darkness Approaches

[Returner]

"Discard 2 cards from your hand. Select 1 face-up monster and flip it face-down, but do not change its battle position."

Getting official rulings on this card is about as easy as walking on water. So let's just get to the point- can Darkness Approaches be used to activate a flip effect the same turn a flip effect monster is summoned or set?

Yes, it's the only card that allows what would otherwise be known as rulings blasphemy in the game- that is the condition of a face-down attack position monster. But along with an utter slap to the face of judges, there are no rulings save for the opinions of so-called "experts" in rulings (whom by the way, should concede to seniority and experience).

The primary argument against Darkness Approaches is that a monster cannot be flip summoned during the same turn it is set. However, a flip summon is equivalent to a manual change in battle position, as recognized by the acceptance of the ruling that a player cannot manually change a flip summoned monster during the same turn and a monster's battle position cannot be changed manually if it has already been changed manually, attacked, or is summoned during the same turn.

Ergo, the reason why you can't flip summon a monster the same turn it has been set on the field is because you cannot manually change the battle position of a monster the same turn it is set.

Darkness Approaches, therefore, does not violate this, because, even if a monster is summoned in attack position then flipped face-down by Darkness Approaches, it's battle position remains the same.

Does anyone have some sound logic to help explain what you can legally do with a face-down attack position monster?

 

[Digital Jedi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall it being common practice here to shut people down who respectfully disagree with us, whether they're right or wrong. I don't see anything in this thread to warrant it being locked. If anyone has a problem with me re-opening it, they can take it up with me in private, either in PM or in Tea Time.

 

[John Danker]

Alright guys, so far this has been kept as a debate and misunderstanding of text. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it myself at this point but I feel it's starting to get an edge to it. Please do me a favor and keep it respectful and in good taste as you have been? Appreciate it guys.

 

[skey23]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Skey...your example, again, uses Book of Moon, which has a different effect from Darkness Approaches. In your example, the monster is summoned and it's battle position IS changed during the same turn.[/font] [/font]

Um..no offense, but did you actually read my example? At no point, in that example, did the monster have it's Battle Position changed, whether manually or by effect.

It was summoned in face-up defense position due to the effect of "Light of Intervention". Then "Book of Moon" was used after "Light of Intervention" was destroyed during the same turn the monster was summoned. So the monster went from face-up defense position to face-down defense position. Now, I don't know about you, but that isn't any kind of position change that I know of. Now, can I Flip Summon it this same turn? NO! Why? Well, you so kindly quoted the reasoning in your last post....

Exception #2: You cannot "manually" change the battle position of a monster if it was Summoned or Set that turn by the turn player.

And was that monster summoned this turn? Yup.

 

[CPMillerWV]

I'm the turn player controlling both effects. Both Manditory. Hence why I put Stumbling as Link 1.

Sorry, I didn't see that you controled BOTH effects.

It is a good example then. :sorry



I had posted where I copied the Rulebook about a Flip Summon. And yes, we all have our 'known' ideas on how the game works; HOWEVER, how many times has these ideas changed? Reimber the TWO oppertunities to activate an effect AFTER you declare an attack? That just changed. Also, time that you CAN activate a card at "odd" times because a card said you can. IE. Spiritualism, the new Counter Counter (until it's possible misprint status).



If you take the rulebook at literal value, his idea can have some validity. Such, flipping a card from face down ATK to face up ATK is NOT a flip summon by definition. We have "assumed" that flipping a card face up is a 'flip summon'. Also, a card CANNOT be face down ATK position! However, this changes that also.

SO,

REREAD the rule book copied from the section about summons.

n Flip Summon

The act of flipping a face-down Defense Position Monster into

face-up Attack Position (without using a card effect) is called a

"Flip Summon". When you Flip Summon, you cannot change the

monster to face-up Defense Position. A Monster Card cannot

be Flip Summoned in the same turn that it was Set onto the

field. You cannot use a monster's effect until it is face-up.

emphsis added

And on how Darkness Approaches changes a basic rule.

nRules vs. Card Effects

If there is a discrepancy between the basic rules and a card's

effect, the card effect takes precedence. For example, a monster

can only attack once per turn, but with a card effect, it is possible

to attack twice.

Now, I can see where you CAN have the situation he describes. We have 'assumed' that flipping a face down card face up manually is a Flip Summon wheather we are changing it's battle position or not. We also 'assumed' that the attacker did not have TWO oppertunities to activate an effect after he declares and attack; however, that too has changed. Also, think Last Will and how it got changed and got it's self banned.

The main question is:

Is flipping a face down (fd) attack position (atk p) monster into a face up (fu) atk p a Flip Summon?

As I have said, we have 'assumed' that flipping a monster face up 'mannualy' is a Flip Summon. HOWEVER, in the newest Rule Book, you can see where it describes it as flipping a fd, def p monster into fu, atk p. Nothing about this situation.

As with Last Will, which changes basic rules/mechanics, you have a situation that is out of the norm!

ALSO, there is NO WAY to flip a fd, atk p monster fu !!!!!!! That's a new rub!!!! Think about that, such as a card RFP with Different Dimension Capsule and RfaDD!

These are points to ponder!

PS: Does everybody see my sig screwed up above?? WIERD! :huh

 

[slither]

Sorry, I didn't see that you controled BOTH effects.

It is a good example then.



I had posted where I copied the Rulebook about a Flip Summon. And yes, we all have our 'known' ideas on how the game works; HOWEVER, how many times has these ideas changed? Reimber the TWO oppertunities to activate an effect AFTER you declare an attack? That just changed. Also, time that you CAN activate a card at "odd" times because a card said you can. IE. Spiritualism, the new Counter Counter (until it's possible misprint status).



If you take the rulebook at literal value, his idea can have some validity. Such, flipping a card from face down ATK to face up ATK is NOT a flip summon by definition. We have "assumed" that flipping a card face up is a 'flip summon'. Also, a card CANNOT be face down ATK position! However, this changes that also.

SO,

REREAD the rule book copied from the section about summons.

emphsis added

And on how Darkness Approaches changes a basic rule.



Now, I can see where you CAN have the situation he describes. We have 'assumed' that flipping a face down card face up manually is a Flip Summon wheather we are changing it's battle position or not. We also 'assumed' that the attacker did not have TWO oppertunities to activate an effect after he declares and attack; however, that too has changed. Also, think Last Will and how it got changed and got it's self banned.

The main question is:

Is flipping a face down (fd) attack position (atk p) monster into a face up (fu) atk p a Flip Summon?

As I have said, we have 'assumed' that flipping a monster face up 'mannualy' is a Flip Summon. HOWEVER, in the newest Rule Book, you can see where it describes it as flipping a fd, def p monster into fu, atk p. Nothing about this situation.

As with Last Will, which changes basic rules/mechanics, you have a situation that is out of the norm!

ALSO, there is NO WAY to flip a fd, atk p monster fu !!!!!!! That's a new rub!!!! Think about that, such as a card RFP with Different Dimension Capsule and RfaDD!

These are points to ponder!

It seems it was only yesterday that it was said that "Nomi" monsters (with the word except in there text) where UNSUMMONABLE except by the way described on the text... and hey what do you know... Level Modulation came up, and the rule book didn't change either.

There are PLENTY of things in the Rule Book that "seem" as they should be the way they read, unfortunately that isn't the case.

As said earlier, the Rulebook only gives the BASIC principles of the game, it doesn't get into any details. A flip summon is a manual action of flipping a monster from face-down to face-up position.

 

[Returner]

First off, I'd like to thank Digital Jedi for giving me a fair chance to express my opinions.

Skey, I'm sorry I gave the misconception your example had a change in battle position. What I meant to say was that, after Book of Moon resolves and the monster is in face-down defense position, the monster would then be manually flipped to face-up attack position. At that point, the flip summon would be in violation of Exception #2, whereas, with Darkness Approaches, the battle position doesn't change after a flip summon.

Densetsu, I understand what you and several others are trying to explain. The mechanics of the game in every situation is exactly the same and a flip summon is always going to work the way you described. I appreciate all of your input and will take your advice on getting an official ruling.

 

[masterwoo0]

Skey, I'm sorry I gave the misconception your example had a change in battle position. What I meant to say was that, after Book of Moon resolves and the monster is in face-down defense position, the monster would then be manually flipped to face-up attack position. At that point, the flip summon would be in violation of Exception #2, whereas, with Darkness Approaches, the battle position doesn't change after a flip summon.

Well, if you are still trying to insinuate that just because the Battle Position doesn't change with Darkness Approaches, you are still ignoring the fact that when you summon a monster, you cannot "re-summon" it by a Manual Position Change if it is somehow turned face-down during that same turn, as a "Flip Summon" still involves manually moving the card by non-effect, from face-down to face-up, regardless of what position it was in, with reference to DEF/ATK.

I hope you find the answer you're seeking in a more understandable form, as it's probably not going to change much from anything listed here.

What I don't understand is, why you only believe that a Battle Position change can only come from DEF to ATK or ATK to DEF. Aren't all positions referred to as Battle Position? And is not "Face-down Defense" a Battle Position, as well as "Face-up Attack"? Sounds like changing from face-down to face-up is still a change of position, just not in terms of Defense to Attack.

 

[CPMillerWV]

It seems it was only yesterday that it was said that "Nomi" monsters (with the word except in there text) where UNSUMMONABLE except by the way described on the text... and hey what do you know... Level Modulation came up, and the rule book didn't change either.

There are PLENTY of things in the Rule Book that "seem" as they should be the way they read, unfortunately that isn't the case.

As said earlier, the Rulebook only gives the BASIC principles of the game, it doesn't get into any details. A flip summon is a manual action of flipping a monster from face-down to face-up position.

Yes it is true the Rule Book does not change as we would like; however, it will NOT change to cover cards that state that they can esurp the rules. They would NEVER change the Level Modulation part in the basic rule book. That's why the exception IS in the Rule Book.

The argument is wheather the "accepted" definition SHOULD be the REAL definition. I agree that I have believed a Flip Summon HAS been concidered changing a card from face down to face up. HOWEVER, this situation is created by Darkness Approaches! Are not ALL cards removed from play FACE UP and public knowledge! Reimber BLS - EotB? He could remove a fd monster; HOWEVER, it is placed face up! NOW, Darkness Approaches presents with another situation; however, on the field.

Now we have a situation the is NOT covered by the basic rule book. As with Different Dimension Capsule, it puts a card RFG face down and if Different Dimension Capsule is destroyed eairly, the card will sit in limbo face down eventhough cards RFG are public knowledge and face up, it is NOT!

At this time, Darkness approaches is the ONLY way we can have a card RFG face down. Also, Different Dimension Capsule is the only way we can have a card face down in ATK position.

Please note, I am unsure yet which is right; however, just because we 'have assumed' that such or such is they way we are used to doing it does not make it right. Yes, this is something VERY rare; however, something to ponder. WHY would we just dismiss it?

 

[masterwoo0]

Also, Different Dimension Capsule is the only way we can have a card face down in ATK position.[/color][/size][/font]

Its not the only way. What position is the card you remove from play with Lightforce Sword? It doesnt matter because cards removed from play do not have a face-down "position". They can be however you want to place them as long as they remain "face-down".

It's when you return the monster from RFG that you observe their original placement on the field. Also, the position of face-down cards removed from play will always be determined by the effect that removed them. If there is no specific designation, it will always be "face-up" as a default.

 

[CPMillerWV]

Its not the only way. What position is the card you remove from play with Lightforce Sword? It doesnt matter because cards removed from play do not have a face-down "position". They can be however you want to place them as long as they remain "face-down".

It's when you return the monster from RFG that you observe their original placement on the field. Also, the position of face-down cards removed from play will always be determined by the effect that removed them. If there is no specific designation, it will always be "face-up" as a default.

I forgot about Lf Sword, however, it will come back no matter what unless the duel is over. Dd Cap is the only one I know of that can leave the card there against the normal situations.

As a "defalt", an ATK position monster will be face up! That's why I wounder if you can flip it! A flip summon is defined as fd def p to fu atk p. Anyway, I HATE to use the excuse that 'thats just the way we have always done it".

 

[masterwoo0]

As a "defalt", an ATK position monster will be face up! That's why I wounder if you can flip it! A flip summon is defined as fd def p to fu atk p. Anyway, I HATE to use the excuse that 'thats just the way we have always done it".

That all depends on your point of view. How many times have you run across a situation where a face-up Attack Position Monster is placed face-down by an effect?

Tsukuyomi
Book of Moon
Ready for Intercepting
Darkness Approaches


Each one of those cards DIRECTS you to the position of the monster when placed face-down. At no time is the placement of the monster a "mystery". Why is Darkness Approaches all of a sudden, an effect gone mad and against the grain??

A Flip Summon as defined by the Rule Book does not need to change from the effect of "one card". It's still the Manual, Non-Effect Act of flipping a face-down card, "face-up". Why is that causing such an uproar?

All because the Rule Book defined the oft normal position of a face-down, Defense Position monster being flipped face-up into Attack Position, as a "Flip Summon". This is the "Normal Condition", and not the exception.

Should we then say that removing a light and dark monster from the Graveyard is a normal way to Special Summon a Monster, and that using a card like Monster Reborn, the abnormal way? Or vice versa? Or does it even matter?

 

[CPMillerWV]

That all depends on your point of view. How many times have you run across a situation where a face-up Attack Position Monster is placed face-down by an effect?

Tsukuyomi
Book of Moon
Ready for Intercepting
Darkness Approaches


Each one of those cards DIRECTS you to the position of the monster when placed face-down. At no time is the placement of the monster a "mystery". Why is Darkness Approaches all of a sudden, an effect gone mad and against the grain??

That is my point, they direct it to the 'standard' accepted fd def p that we are 'accustomed' to. And it's against the grain because Darkness Approaches is the one that says something different. It has NOT 'gone mad', it's gone out of the norm we are accustomed to. Hence, questions about some rulings.

A Flip Summon as defined by the Rule Book does not need to change from the effect of "one card". It's still the Manual, Non-Effect Act of flipping a face-down card, "face-up". Why is that causing such an uproar?

Because it's face down attack position. And it's NOT an uproar, it's the responces that are. This is a descussion on an effect out of the norm.

All because the Rule Book defined the oft normal position of a face-down, Defense Position monster being flipped face-up into Attack Position, as a "Flip Summon". This is the "Normal Condition", and not the exception.

It did not 'define' anything EXCEPT that a Flip Summon is from face down defence position to face up attack position. Period. Not flipped face up. And, face down defence position is NOT more normal than face UP defense position! Think of Destiny Hero - Malicious, LLA-B, E-Con and such. I put a lot of monsters in face up defence position.

Should we then say that removing a light and dark monster from the Graveyard is a normal way to Special Summon a Monster, and that using a card like Monster Reborn, the abnormal way? Or vice versa? Or does it even matter?

No, I think those are covered under SPECIAL summons. Normal Summon or Set, and Trubute Summon are in the 'Normal' section. How could you come up with this? I hope we can discuss this in a friendly mannor.

 

[masterwoo0]

No, I think those are covered under SPECIAL summons. Normal Summon or Set, and Trubute Summon are in the 'Normal' section. How could you come up with this? I hope we can discuss this in a friendly mannor.

I came up with that to show you that Removing a light and Dark Monster to summon a Monster is not specifically covered in the Rule Book, but there is no debate about what it is. It is still a Special Summon no matter how it happened, and you don't need a direct line of text in the Rule Book to explain it.

That is how Darkness Approaches should be treated as well.

The Rule Book is not a comprehensive guide to Yugioh. It is a "BASIC" guide at best. Advanced Gameplay is discussed either at the Official Website, or things are passed down by Konami/UDE as necessary.

The Rule Book itself is only updated to reflect changes in the Basic language of the game, like "Ignition Effect", "Equip Cards", "Priority", etc... (and may even update to reflect "Second Summon", since it is most likely a new game mechanic). It would be well over the size of your average Harry Potter Book if they tried to touch on every aspect and nuance of the game. Look at how long just a Thread here goes on and on to explain something that should be relatively simple to digest.

 

[slither]

Because it's face down attack position. And it's NOT an uproar, it's the responces that are. This is a descussion on an effect out of the norm.

About 60% of the effects of this game are "out of the norm", effects that let you bypass summoning conditions, bypass effects, bypass phases etc.

The card is not altering what a "normal circumstance" of the game should be like, it's just applying an effect to a circumstance of the game.