Thunder Dragon

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ChaosMachine

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Can i discard a Thunder Dragon if the other two are already in the graveyard? and will Thunder Dragons effect trigger if discarded for Dark Core?
 
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FLIP effects are mandatory the text is irrelevant.

They cannot miss their timing because they are FLIP effects.

When the card is flipped its effect is triggered, and will activate at the first opportunity.

The ruling says:

"You may choose to return 0 monsters to their owners hand"

No where does it say that you can choose not to return any monsters at all i.e. not activating its effect.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
FLIP effects are mandatory the text is irrelevant.

They cannot miss their timing because they are FLIP effects.

When the card is flipped its effect is triggered, and will activate at the first opportunity.

The ruling says:

"You may choose to return 0 monsters to their owners hand"

No where does it say that you can choose not to return any monsters at all i.e. not activating its effect.
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It is not defined as an "Optional Trigger" but if you choose 0, no link is created.

It does not share the same timing requirements as the new "Optional Trigger" mechanic.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Already done:

When Penguin Soldier is Attacked by D.D. Warrior Lady.

SEGOC:

Turn Player Mandatory
Opponent Mandatory
Turn Player Optional (D.D. Warrior Lady)
Opponent Optional

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=7442#7442


Penguin Soldier is Mandatory.
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As i said, it is not defined as an Optional Trigger, but if you choose 0, no link is created. You do not create Links of empty effects.
 
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novastar said:
As i said, it is not defined as an Optional Trigger, but if you choose 0, no link is created. You do not create Link of empty effects.
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But its not an empty effect.

Its returning 0 monsters to the opponents hand.

0 is a whole number.

Whether i pay 5$ for lunch or get a free lunch, there is always taht same "Implied COntract" that lets me get that lunch.
 
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novastar said:
As far as we know (the last known word i know of), you must declare how many TD's you want to find when you activate it, but if you fail to find that amount, you have to show to prove. Also, if you find the amount you want you have to take them.

Personally, i think you should just discard and activate, then when you resolve, you look through the Deck and decide what you wanna do, but if you find at least 1, you have to take it, but you can opt out on the second one. If you don't find any, you show to prove. Then no matter what the outcome, you shuffle the Deck.
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your second assumption is correct.
rule of thumb: effects that affect the hand/deck NEVER do anything at activation (costs are paid BEFORE the actual activation, before anyone tries to point that out).

DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
But its not an empty effect.

Its returning 0 monsters to the opponents hand.

0 is a whole number.

Whether i pay 5$ for lunch or get a free lunch, there is always taht same "Implied COntract" that lets me get that lunch.
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I said it once and I'll say it again: don't try to bring real life logic into yu-gi-oh.
 
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novastar said:
But that is the same thing as choosing 0.

I highly doubt you could say "a activate Mobius" and then "I choose no target(s)"...that doesn't make sense. If you don't choose any target the effect is not activated, and no Chain Link is formed.

You shouldn't have to decide when you activate, because it is non-targeted, and it seems perfectly acceptable to decide one by one as you look through the Deck during resolution. Just like any other Deck search effect.

However, it also seems reasonable, that once you discard TD, you are commiting to search for at least 1, since it's a manual Ignition Effect. That's functionally how most other Ignitions work.
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You do say if you're going to target anything with Mobius or not. That's just how that card works. Thunder Dragon doesn't work like that. Discarding him is activating him. You can search your deck for up to 2 Thunder Dragon. Zero is included. If zero is what is being searched then you move to the next step of the card's effect. This is shuffling the deck.

Thunder Dragon doesn't function the same as other "up to" cards. The effect is activated, the amount is optional. Zero is included in the options of the amount of Thunder Dragons you can add to your hand. Shuffle deck when you're done searching. Thunder Dragon has two effects anyway. Card search and deck shuffling. You resolve them both in the same chain link, just one at a time.
 
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"deck shuffling" is not part of the effect (for almost every card, except, from the top of my head, 'Card Shuffle'), it's a basic mechanic applied everytime the deck is searched, that line is included in most cards to avoid confusion (similar to how 'Poison Draw Frog' has that text in brackets), note how monsters like 'Des Frog' or the LV Monsters don't include the "shuffle your deck" part, but that doesn't exclude them from this mechanic.
 
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rule of thumb: effects that affect the hand/deck NEVER do anything at activation (costs are paid BEFORE the actual activation, before anyone tries to point that out).
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Well i definately don't see it that way, even if there aren't any current effects to prove otherwise (which is haven't checked), because there is nothing mechanically stopping Konami from making an effect that defies that. One thing is for sure, you don't target cards in the Deck. As far as cost before activation... or the whole "activation" discussion... i'm not even gonna touch that.


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To backtrack and correct/clarify my earlier comments.

A Trigger being Optional or Mandatory is not defined by the ability/choice to activate, but by the requirements for the effect to trigger at all.

In the end, just because PS's effect is mandatory doesn't mean that you can't choose not to activate it. It being Mandatory simply means that it will always trigger no matter where/when the triggering event occurs.

My firm belief is that Cropz is correct, and choosing to activate Thunder Dragon is a commitment to search out at least 1 Thunder Dragon.
 
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novastar said:
Well i definately don't see it that way, even if there aren't any current effects to prove otherwise (which is haven't checked), because there is nothing mechanically stopping Konami from making an effect that defies that. One thing is for sure, you don't target cards in the Deck. As far as cost before activation... or the whole "activation" discussion... i'm not even gonna touch that.
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when Konami does create something like that, I'll just erase that Rule of Thumb from all documented history ;P
 
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novastar said:
A Trigger being Optional or Mandatory is not defined by the ability/choice to activate, but by the requirements for the effect to trigger at all.

In the end, just because PS's effect is mandatory doesn't mean that you can't choose not to activate it. It being Mandatory simply means that it will always trigger no matter where/when the triggering event occurs.
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No.

Trigger effects are triggered when they are triggered. Sounds obvious doesn't it?

When you tribute summon Mobius successfully its effect is triggered. Its summoned, nothing else has happened, so it can't concern itself with missing the timing because it is still the last thing to happen.

BUt an effect can't activate mid-chain so it has to wait, jsut like any Mandatory trigger effect.

And if something else resolves before Mobius can activate, then it misses the timing to "activate."

It was still triggered.

After all how could you miss its timing if their wasn't any thing triggered to miss?
 
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Tkwiget said:
Thunder Dragon doesn't function the same as other "up to" cards. The effect is activated, the amount is optional. Zero is included in the options of the amount of Thunder Dragons you can add to your hand. Shuffle deck when you're done searching. Thunder Dragon has two effects anyway. Card search and deck shuffling. You resolve them both in the same chain link, just one at a time.
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Zero is not included. Once you search your deck, you are searching to remove 1 or 2 Thunder Dragon's, not "Zero". If Zero was the amount you could state, then it would most likely say that you do not have to search, and you may just shuffle your deck instead. If you activate the effect, the intent is to search for a monster.

You are always searching to remove a card regardless of whether you have a remaining card or not to actually remove. The game state cannot recognize whether you have 1, 2, or 8 Thunder Dragon's in your deck. Game Rules dictate that you may only have "up to" 3 monsters of any one card, in your Deck. If you have "0" monsters in your deck, meaning you have 39 Spells/Traps, and Sangan as your only monster, is destroyed on the field, does the game know that you only have one monster?

No. So you would search your deck for a monster that is 1500 attack or below. You wouldnt state to your opponent, "I am searching my deck for "0" monsters, even though you already know that you dont have one.
 
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Before anyone jumps on me, i'll add my two cents quite quickly @_@

Cards which NEED to take something regardless are cards like Toon Table of Contents which is NOT giving you any option of how many cards you want to take out if there is a card with Toon it must be taken out of the deck.

Thunder Dragon has no such clause, it is giving the player who activated the effect of knowing what to do with it, trigger or not, mandatory or not, it is still giving a choice, Penguin Soldier being mandatory it's still letting you have a choice. Mobius being a trigger effect it's effect will trigger regardless but you still have a choice.

Thunder Dragon has no other restrictions.
 
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Im hoping no one has missed my point. You get "zero" Thunder Dragon's because you have no Thunder Dragons in your deck to remove, not because you can choose "zero" to remove.

If you are using the effect, it should be that you are doing so to "try" to remove a monster, not because you are telling your opponent that, "I just want to shuffle my deck."

We already know that shuffling is a result of searching your deck, so no one is against that. But the "up to" portion of the effect does not mean the option to remove 0 if you have at least one Thunder Dragon in your deck.

I'm sure there are obvious reasons to want to toss one, and search your deck so you can shuffle, and maybe it could be that simple, but I still dont think you can choose to remove zero unless you have none to remove.
 
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Isn't the "Shuffle your Deck afterwards" being printed on cards now (including reprints)? That is, it's becoming a part of the effects instead of some Game Mechanic?


I believe we've also ignored the declaration argument here. If I discard a Thunder Dragon, if I'm supposed to declare how many Thunder Dragons I want from my Deck and I declare 2, what happens if there is only 1 in my Deck? Do I take it, even though I declared I would be taking 2? "Up to" probably means that, yes.

I still think you should be able to discard Thunder Dragon, have a flick through your Deck and then regardless of how many Thunder Dragons there are in your Deck be able to say "Nah, I don't want any", and shuffle your Deck. Every time you activate a Thunder Dragon's effect you should look through your Deck. Only then should you decide how many you want, if any. Zero is a perfecly valid choice, thanks to "up to" (see Penguin Soldier). Just because there is a Thunder Dragon (or two) in your Deck, doesn't force you to take at least one of them.
 
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Maruno said:
Zero is a perfecly valid choice, thanks to "up to" (see Penguin Soldier). Just because there is a Thunder Dragon (or two) in your Deck, doesn't force you to take at least one of them.
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The difference with Penguin Soldier is, If you say, "Im going to send back 2", then you send back 2.

You only trigger a flip effect that is optional. You activate it by stating that you are sending cards, that's why it can be Divine Wrathed.

If you just flip it face-up, can you Divine Wrath it? If you say you dont want to send cards, can you Divine Wrath it?
 
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I don't see the link here. My point that you quoted is about declaring upon activation of the effect how many Thunder Dragons you want, or not declaring at that time. Do you not declare upon activation of the effect of Penguin Soldier how many monsters you want to return (if you activate it at all)?

If you activate the effect of Thunder Dragon, declare "none for me, thanks", and shuffle your Deck, that is fine. "Up to" includes zero. The difference here is that the adding Thunder Dragons is just a part of a bigger effect that also includes shuffling. If you choose to remove no monsters with Penguin Soldier, there's no more effect besides that to activate. And you can't activate an effect that does nothing.

But Thunder Dragon will shuffle your Deck regardless of however many Thunder Dragons you get. In this case, zero is an acceptable number of Thunder Dragons to get, because doing so will not make the effect nothing. There's always the shuffling. It's part of the effect, not a Game Mechanic related to searching your Deck. That makes it work.
 
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