timing w/sak
- Thread starter SS64
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Because the declaration of an attack and the actual "Battle Step" are two different things. They may happen technically in the same step, but they are two things that have their own rules. I made an example earlier in the post about how one would progress in a fight. I declare that I want to fight you Digital. (Declaration of an attack). We both are throwing our fists in the air at each other (Battle Step). We connect with our hits. (Damage Step).
I was trying to show that it is important to understand that Declaring an Attack and the Battle Step have their rules to it. For example, we know about priority in battle. I declare my attack with a monster, I activate MST in response to that attack to destroy 1 of my opponents face-down cards, he chains with Sakuretsu Armor (the card I targetted), I activate Seven Tools. Chain resolves, yatta yatta. Now we are in the Battle Step portion and now my opponent could activate Dark Spirit Assailant (the card Bakura uses which states it needs to be used in the Battle Step, not the declaration of the attack, the battle step, OR he could use say Book of Moon).
I was showing that type of thing that people tend to not realize. They just assume you declare an attack, you both pass priority, then boom you are in damage step when that is not true.
I was trying to show that it is important to understand that Declaring an Attack and the Battle Step have their rules to it. For example, we know about priority in battle. I declare my attack with a monster, I activate MST in response to that attack to destroy 1 of my opponents face-down cards, he chains with Sakuretsu Armor (the card I targetted), I activate Seven Tools. Chain resolves, yatta yatta. Now we are in the Battle Step portion and now my opponent could activate Dark Spirit Assailant (the card Bakura uses which states it needs to be used in the Battle Step, not the declaration of the attack, the battle step, OR he could use say Book of Moon).
I was showing that type of thing that people tend to not realize. They just assume you declare an attack, you both pass priority, then boom you are in damage step when that is not true.
That statement is inconsistent with the message:Tiso said:
Of course you don't enter the Damage Step right away. That is the whole point if the message. But your placing attack declaration outside of the Battle Step. The message doesn't even insinuate that. It very plainly says both chains activate and resolve in the Battle Step.
If it happens in the same step as you say Jedi. How do you explain the Battle Step then? How do you go from declaring attack, activating a Trap or Spell Card in response to the attack, have a Counter Trap negate it. Then you move onto this mysterious place before the Damage Step where one can use cards like Enemy Controller, Book of Moon, Dark Spirit Assailant, Call of the Haunted, and so on?
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Tiso said:
You don't go anywhere, you're still in the same place you were before.
Maybe you're trying to analyze the word "step" here, which you shouldn't, it is jsut a meaningless word, and should be thought of now differently than a different "phase", only that its within another phase.
You don;t have to leave the main phase after summoning a monster and responding to that.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Tiso said:
The damage step is progressed because there is a one manual chain per sub-step rule.
The battle-step no longer has that rule, and with that there is no longer any reason to assume that there is any progression in the battle step.
But even if it were there could still be infinitely long, it would ahve no barring on what the battle step were.
e.g. you would
A) begin the battle step,
B)declare attack,
C)select monster to attack,
D)select attack target,
E)respond to attack (activate any trigger effects included)
F)respond to whatever happend in "e"
G)respond to whatever happened in "F" etc...
What are you referring to? This is not a step. This is an action within the Battle Step, just like card activation is an action within the Battle Step. The Battle Step begins with an attack declaration and ends when you proceed to the Damage Step. Everything that happens inbetween is within the Battle Step. The declaration is the beginning of the Battle Step, not a separate step.Tiso said:
Digital Jedi said:
Digital, the thing is you are saying contradictory statements. You say the Battle Step begins with the declaration of an attack and ends when you enter the Damage Step. Then how do you even stay in the Battle Step when a Counter Trap ends the chain? You should and would automatically enter the damage step. Not to mention you would and should automatically enter the damage step when no one is going to respond to the declaration of an attack, but the fact that you enter some sub-step of the Battle Step proves that there is more to declaring and attack and the actual BATTLE STEP.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Tiso said:
No you shouldn't.
It begins with the attack declaration, and ends when its over, but there can be as much stuff inbetween as both players would like.
You've created a straw man arugment, you're arguing only with yourself, your comments about what "should" happen are irrelevant to the situation.
There is no sub-step in the battle step.
Imagine the main phase, now think of it as a rule that the normal summon had to happen at the beginning of the main phase.
That is the only difference, there is a "when" in the battle step. A when you must perform a certain action. But there is absolutely NO reason to assume that just because there is one when that everything else must be "when".
In fact, this is not unique to the battle step, as Cold Wave makes a similar situation in the main phase.
I think I see where he's getting confused. I'll try to explain.
"Declaring an attack" is a trigger point. Many cards can only be activated when an attack is declared. Therefore, the last thing to happen ("resolve") is that attack declaration or you can't activate the card (let's use "Sakuretsu Armor" as the example).
If your opponent declared an attack (they are in the Battle Step), you have the opportunity to respond with "Sakuretsu Armor". If you do and your opponent chains "Trap Jammer" to it and you don't respond, the chain resolves and "Sakuretsu Armor" is negated. Now, you're still in the same Battle Step and the attack is still "swinging," BUT the window for activating "Sakuretsu Armor" is past because the last thing to resolve was the a Trap Card, NOT an attack declaration. However, your still have an opportunity to activate any OTHER card that does not have the "when your opponent declares an attack" trigger window.
Be clear, YOU ARE STILL IN THE SAME BATTLE STEP, but you cannot activate another "Sakuretsu Armor" because the timing is no longer correct (that's what those examples in that judge's list posting you linked were talking about).
Note that you don't move yourself manually through these trigger windows, they are part of the natural progression of time as you conduct an attack. You cannot say to your opponent, "OK, now I'm through the attack declaration trigger window, so I'm going to activate THIS card." The game looks at the last thing to occur, which in the example given in the original question, was the attack declaration. The fact that the turn player activated a card first makes no bearing on the fact that he activated a card during the "attack declaration" trigger window, so any card that can be activated at that time during the Battle Step CAN be chained to that card.
"Declaring an attack" is a trigger point. Many cards can only be activated when an attack is declared. Therefore, the last thing to happen ("resolve") is that attack declaration or you can't activate the card (let's use "Sakuretsu Armor" as the example).
If your opponent declared an attack (they are in the Battle Step), you have the opportunity to respond with "Sakuretsu Armor". If you do and your opponent chains "Trap Jammer" to it and you don't respond, the chain resolves and "Sakuretsu Armor" is negated. Now, you're still in the same Battle Step and the attack is still "swinging," BUT the window for activating "Sakuretsu Armor" is past because the last thing to resolve was the a Trap Card, NOT an attack declaration. However, your still have an opportunity to activate any OTHER card that does not have the "when your opponent declares an attack" trigger window.
Be clear, YOU ARE STILL IN THE SAME BATTLE STEP, but you cannot activate another "Sakuretsu Armor" because the timing is no longer correct (that's what those examples in that judge's list posting you linked were talking about).
Note that you don't move yourself manually through these trigger windows, they are part of the natural progression of time as you conduct an attack. You cannot say to your opponent, "OK, now I'm through the attack declaration trigger window, so I'm going to activate THIS card." The game looks at the last thing to occur, which in the example given in the original question, was the attack declaration. The fact that the turn player activated a card first makes no bearing on the fact that he activated a card during the "attack declaration" trigger window, so any card that can be activated at that time during the Battle Step CAN be chained to that card.
Tiso, please read Kyhotae's last reply. You are slightly confused about "Steps" or subphases of a Phase.
Please consult Pages 25-26 of the 5.0 Rulebook.
BattlePhase consists of 4 subphases or Steps in this sequence:
1. Start Step - player declares he/she is entering Battle Phase.
2. Battle Step - Turn player selects a monster to attack with and declares an opponent's monster or LP's as an attack target.
3. Damage Step
4. End Step
The examples you have given and quoted from the judge list all occur in the Battle Step. In other card games, there are special chains called "summon response chains" or "attack declaration chains". I have to admit, Yu-Gi-Oh! does not currently have such nomenclature but certain cards CAN ONLY BE ACTIVATED DURING THE ATTACK DECLARATION. "Mirror Force", "Sakuretsu Armor", "Magic Cylinder" are all such trap cards that can only be activated when the last action to occur in the Game State is the attack declaration.
In one of your examples, the turn player declares an attack. The opponent activates "Sakuretsu Armor" and the turn player negates it with "Trap Jammer". If this chain resolves, the last action to occur in the game state was the negation of "Sakuretsu Armor" by "Trap Jammer", not an attack declaration. During the same Battle Step, the opponent MAY NOT activate cards such as "Magic Cylinder" or "Negate Attack" which require an attack declaration as the last game action. However, the opponent could activate "Book of Moon" or "Gravity Bind" or "Enemy Controller". None of these 3 aforementioned cards has an activation requirement.
So what needs to be clarified here are:
1. There are 4 steps of Battle Phase
2. MULTIPLE CHAINS may occur in Battle Step (Start Step too)
3. Some cards can only be activated during the ATTACK DECLARATION or when the last action to occur in the game state is an attack declaration.
4. There is usually only 1 attack declaration per selected monster and target.
Resolving a chain in Battle Step, does NOT automatically force you into Damage Step.
doc
Please consult Pages 25-26 of the 5.0 Rulebook.
BattlePhase consists of 4 subphases or Steps in this sequence:
1. Start Step - player declares he/she is entering Battle Phase.
2. Battle Step - Turn player selects a monster to attack with and declares an opponent's monster or LP's as an attack target.
3. Damage Step
4. End Step
The examples you have given and quoted from the judge list all occur in the Battle Step. In other card games, there are special chains called "summon response chains" or "attack declaration chains". I have to admit, Yu-Gi-Oh! does not currently have such nomenclature but certain cards CAN ONLY BE ACTIVATED DURING THE ATTACK DECLARATION. "Mirror Force", "Sakuretsu Armor", "Magic Cylinder" are all such trap cards that can only be activated when the last action to occur in the Game State is the attack declaration.
In one of your examples, the turn player declares an attack. The opponent activates "Sakuretsu Armor" and the turn player negates it with "Trap Jammer". If this chain resolves, the last action to occur in the game state was the negation of "Sakuretsu Armor" by "Trap Jammer", not an attack declaration. During the same Battle Step, the opponent MAY NOT activate cards such as "Magic Cylinder" or "Negate Attack" which require an attack declaration as the last game action. However, the opponent could activate "Book of Moon" or "Gravity Bind" or "Enemy Controller". None of these 3 aforementioned cards has an activation requirement.
So what needs to be clarified here are:
1. There are 4 steps of Battle Phase
2. MULTIPLE CHAINS may occur in Battle Step (Start Step too)
3. Some cards can only be activated during the ATTACK DECLARATION or when the last action to occur in the game state is an attack declaration.
4. There is usually only 1 attack declaration per selected monster and target.
Resolving a chain in Battle Step, does NOT automatically force you into Damage Step.
doc
There is no reason that fully explains what exactly is the Battle Step. It would be confusing to just say it all happens in the same phase and try to sell me that the Battle Step is basically this mini-phase in the Battle Phase that has its own rules, similiar to the Main Phase 1 where we can activate cards as long as we are in the Main Phase and it has not ended yet.
P1. Declares an attack. Skips on priority to activate a card.
P2. Activates Sakuretsu Armor.
P1. Chains with Seven Tools.
Nothing added to the chain. Resolves.
P2. Activates Book of Moon.
P1. Chains with Magic Jammer.
Nothing added to the chain. Resolves.
P2. Activates Dark Spirit of the Assailant.
P1. Chains with Trap Jammer.
Nothing added to the chain. Resolves.
On to the Damage Step. Tell me how that is perfectly legal? That is basically what you are telling me. We can just continue to activate cards, have them negated, start another chain, have it finished, then repeat until we even reach the Damage Step.
P1. Declares an attack. Skips on priority to activate a card.
P2. Activates Sakuretsu Armor.
P1. Chains with Seven Tools.
Nothing added to the chain. Resolves.
P2. Activates Book of Moon.
P1. Chains with Magic Jammer.
Nothing added to the chain. Resolves.
P2. Activates Dark Spirit of the Assailant.
P1. Chains with Trap Jammer.
Nothing added to the chain. Resolves.
On to the Damage Step. Tell me how that is perfectly legal? That is basically what you are telling me. We can just continue to activate cards, have them negated, start another chain, have it finished, then repeat until we even reach the Damage Step.
Yes, All 3 of those chains are legal during Battle Step!
You don't even have to negate the cards to start additional chains.
Let say "Matazza the Zapper" attacks your attack position "Spirit Reaper". You negate "Matazza's" first attack with "Magic Cylinder". P1 does not negate "Magic Cylinder". You then realize "Matazza" can attack again because he has that effect, so you begin a new chain and activate "Ring of Destruction" targeting "Matazza". This is legal too, all in the same Battle Step.
Like I said in my previous message; you must realize that players are allowed multiple chains in Battle Step. However, there can only be 1 ATTACK DECLARATION response chain.
doc
You don't even have to negate the cards to start additional chains.
Let say "Matazza the Zapper" attacks your attack position "Spirit Reaper". You negate "Matazza's" first attack with "Magic Cylinder". P1 does not negate "Magic Cylinder". You then realize "Matazza" can attack again because he has that effect, so you begin a new chain and activate "Ring of Destruction" targeting "Matazza". This is legal too, all in the same Battle Step.
Like I said in my previous message; you must realize that players are allowed multiple chains in Battle Step. However, there can only be 1 ATTACK DECLARATION response chain.
doc
The first part with the Battle Step is confusing. You have priority when you enter the Battle Phase to activate a card like Call of the Haunted for example. Yet he lists for the Battle Step Sub-Step 1 you have priority to activate say a Call of the Haunted? How do you move from entering the Battle Phase, having priority there, to just being in the Battle Step, have second priority to do this and that and then wait for Sub-Step 3 just to even announce your attack? WTF. Not to mention this was more than a year ago.
Stat Step, activate something using your priority or pass. If you activate something, your opponent can chain. If not, he passes.
Battle Step, activate something using your priority or pass. If you activate something, your opponent can chain. If not, he passes.
That sounds suspiciously like every other phase in the game. In fact, that IS every other phase in the game. Why should the Battle Step be any different?
Battle Step, activate something using your priority or pass. If you activate something, your opponent can chain. If not, he passes.
That sounds suspiciously like every other phase in the game. In fact, that IS every other phase in the game. Why should the Battle Step be any different?
Digital Jedi said:
Uh because we just magically shift from entering the Battle Phase, me wanting to activate a card thanks to my turn priority to use jumping into the Battle Step without me even declaring an attack or doing anything after I used up my priority from entering the Battle Phase in the first place. Then I am supposed to believe I get some mystical 2nd priority in the Battle Phase without me even lifting a finger? Something is wrong with that. Declaring an attack should not be in Sub-Step 3 of the Battle Step.
Now the only thing I can even attempt to understand is that like any other phase, once you enter it we get (turn player) have priority. We use it up, poof the phase continues. So when we enter the Battle Phase, use priority, poof that is done with. Now we just sit in the Battle Phase until we decide to declare an attack. Even before declaring an attack we can just activate cards. That would make sense to me, but it is hardly explained that way at least for me.
There's no "second priority". There's priority in one step and priority in the next step, again, just like any other phase. You do realize that you don't even have to enter the Battle Step after entering the Battle Phase, right?