Torrential Tribute

J

John Danker

Administrator
Have you ever had one of those ruling thoughts in your head that just didn't sound right but it figures out alright?

Example:

I summon Chiron The Mage and use my priority to activate it's effect by discarding.

My opponent does not wish to chain to the effect.

I activate Torrential Tribute.

Am I completely spacing something off here (I've certainly done that a time or two in the last few days) or does that scenario work just fine? It doesn't sound right, seems I should have the optiion to either use Chrion's ignition effect OR Torrential Tribute....but not in chain. I think I need a vacation!
 
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John Danker said:
Have you ever had one of those ruling thoughts in your head that just didn't sound right but it figures out alright?

Example:

I summon Chiron The Mage and use my priority to activate it's effect by discarding.

My opponent does not wish to chain to the effect.

I activate Torrential Tribute.

Am I completely spacing something off here (I've certainly done that a time or two in the last few days) or does that scenario work just fine? It doesn't sound right, seems I should have the optiion to either use Chrion's ignition effect OR Torrential Tribute....but not in chain. I think I need a vacation!
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You started a Chain, based off Chiron's Ignition Effect, which was your turn player priority to do so, your opponent failed to respond, so chaining Torrential Tribute to Chiron's effect is completely legal, as the last action was still a Successful Summon.
 
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<nodding> Yeah....I know it's legal....it just doesn't "sound" legal! It all figures out according to mechanics I realized, and I realized that before I posted.....it just doesn't "seem" right so I thought I'd run it up the flag pole and see if my thinking was amiss.
 
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The summon response chain doesn't get interrupted with the other effects placed on the chain, so why would a pass on on one of the links be any different? The chain is still in response to the summon.
 
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not sure if this has anyhting to do with anything. but ill take a stab

At that point when you activated Torrential, the opponent can still chain to the TPs torrent using his face down card, if he now wanted to.
He can use his BTH, ring of destruction, etc....

maybe because the scenario seemed wierd because the NTP decided on not to respond to Chiron's effect, so it would seem like the card that chiron destroyed would not be used???
 
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It sounds weird to me too, because you're Summoning a monster, activating an effect and then activating Torrential Tribute, a card that generally should come immediately after a Summon. How'd that effect get in there? And it took ages between the Summon and activating Torrential Tribute. Crazy.

I suppose the way to think about it is that it didn't take a long time at all. It's like Summoning the monster all primed and ready to use its effect, which it just about manages to do before the Torrential Tribute (that activates almost immediately after a Summon) strikes. Forget about the opponent passing his chances to Chain cards, and just think about what's actually happening.
 
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The reason it looks "weird" is this..

I summon, at this point I have the option to begin a chain. I've choosen to begin a chain by an effect other than Torrential Tribute (other than responding to the summon)

Now if it's the other way around...

I summon, I begin a chain by activating Chiron The Mage's effect. My opponent chains Torrential Tribute...this is the first opportunity my opponent has had to respond to the summon.

So the reason it looks "weird" is because I had my chance to respond to the summon but choose to instead begin a chain with something else....it "seems" odd that I can then, after choosing not to respond to the summon at that time but choosing to use a different effect, respond to it after that other effect has been activated.

It's alright <s> I seem "weird" to myself at times too!
 
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Here's the thing John. You aren't responding to your summon with the effect of "Chiron the Mage". You are simply utilizing your Priority to activate an Ignition Effect in response to your summon. You still haven't responded TO the summon yet....;)
 
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after turn player plays torriental tribute, can the non turn player still respond with ,say,a previously set forced back? we are still at a point where the last thing to resolve was the summon....
 
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cuzwbd said:
after turn player plays torriental tribute, can the non turn player still respond with ,say,a previously set forced back? we are still at a point where the last thing to resolve was the summon....
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Forced Back must immediately be played in response to the summon by either the Turn Player, or the Non Turn Player. It cannot "chain" to an effect or another Spell/Trap Card.
 
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hmmm - if tp uses priority to respond to summon - a forced back,bth th whatever would still be link 2 wouldnt it?
any way - i was wanting to know if it was still possible to respond to summon that far down chain - but forced back (and a lot of others too )miss timing...something like compulsory would be ok, i'm thinking....just wanted the negation....ah well
 
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cuzwbd said:
hmmm - if tp uses priority to respond to summon - a forced back,bth th whatever would still be link 2 wouldnt it?
any way - i was wanting to know if it was still possible to respond to summon that far down chain - but forced back (and a lot of others too )miss timing...something like compulsory would be ok, i'm thinking....just wanted the negation....ah well
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forced back is Speed 3 isnt it?
 
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mikoal said:
forced back is Speed 3 isnt it?
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It has nothing to do with Spell Speed. Its a Counter Trap. It can ONLY be activated to respond to a specific event, which is a Summon. "Chaining" to a Spell or Trap means that it is attempting to "Counter" a Spell or Trap, which Forced Back cannot do.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
It has nothing to do with Spell Speed. Its a Counter Trap. It can ONLY be activated to respond to a specific event, which is a Summon. "Chaining" to a Spell or Trap means that it is attempting to "Counter" a Spell or Trap, which Forced Back cannot do.
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i never said it would
i know he could not chain it
he needed to activate it before chiron even uses its effect

EDIT: like u said responding to an event

all i was saying was in his examples, force back is NOT like BTH, its a spell speed 3, or a counter trap
 
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skey23 said:
Here's the thing John. You aren't responding to your summon with the effect of "Chiron the Mage". You are simply utilizing your Priority to activate an Ignition Effect in response to your summon. You still haven't responded TO the summon yet....;)
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I think a lot of people are missing my point here and think I'm confused, I'm not, I fully realize that the chain works and why.....as I stated, it just "SEEMS" like there is something wrong with it.

This is more of a topic to encourage discussion and understanding.

About a year ago the L3s were instructed not to post any questions to the judges board that didn't actually come up in a tournament, a couple of us used to post questions that we actually knew the answers to but had run into so many times that we felt complelled to post to the judge's list so that others would understand. Some would ask, "What the heck did you post that for? You should already know the answer to that by now!".....and they missed the point. We weren't posting it for our own benefit, we were hoping to help the understanding of others. This is a similar scenario.
 
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The way I explained it to someone at our local event was "You cannot Chain Forced Back like that because in order for you or your opponent to respond to the Summon with an effect (you use Priority/ He use BTH, etc.) the Monster must be successfully Summoned. Once that has happened, it is too late to activate Forced Back."

That helped him a lot better than when I had just said, "The rules say that if you wish to Forced Back your Monster, you must announce it before your opponent responds to your summon." That just got a blank stare.
 
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I'm glad you're going over this John because I, for one, haven't fully understood priority and this is helping to force me to understand the rules. Here's what I've learned from this (please let me know if I'm wrong!)​

Rules state that the TP always has priority to activate a card. Summoning (Tributing and Paying Costs as well) are not card activations and therefore the TP has not passed priority since he only passes priority by using his Priority to activate a card" or "passes Priority", Priority is automatically passed to the opponent.

Ahhhh... so, this is why the Summon of Chiron the Mage -> his effect -> NTP pass is legal.

Man, it took me awhile to get my head around why this was legal. Thanks to you all for this stuff since I only play with my 7 yo son so we don't get much outside information other than these forums.
 
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