Victory Dragon & Player Etiquette

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
First off, sorry it seems like I'm away. I only get limited morning/evening/weekend time in the City since my new job has this place websensed... 8^D But here's something we've been debating in the Lair.

According to Pojo, Victory Dragon has been confirmed a Shonen Jump promo card. I've never been the biggest rumor believer, but for the sake of this argument, here's the text:

Victory Dragon
Dark/Dragon/8/2400/3000
This card cannot be special summon. You must sacrifice 3 Dragon sub-type monsters on your field to sacrifice summon this monster. When you successfully bring opponent's lifepoints to 0 as a result of this card's direct attack, the controller of this
card wins the match.

So there ya have it. A nice little "insta gib" for the entire match! You can be down 1-0, pull off a win with this guy in round 2, and automatically take the cake! Gets pretty intense eh?

But here's my question. Let's say its Game 1 of the duel. Player A has Player B down to 2000 lifepoints, has effectively "cleared" the field and slaps down a Victory Dragon. At this point there's a pretty good hunch that Player A is going to attack, get the win, and effectively win the match.

So as soon as Player B sees the Victory Dragon hit the field, heck as soon as he sees 3 dragons starting to get cleared from the field, Player B puts his hand on his deck and says "I surrender this game to you". They do this knowing full well (as do us all) that they have just bought themselves at least 1 more round to try and come from behind.

Is this legal? Is this poor sportsmanship? What's the call here?
 
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There really isn't anything that I know of to which you could compare or from which you could extrapolate. So unless someone knows of a Japanese source, I'd say we'll just have to wait for a ruling. But for those of you who are anxious to test out this card in proxy form and want a decision now: In the show, you may only surrender on your own turn, so I'll bet it's the same way.
 
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Well that's a good question.. It would seem a little wierd for like them to be going fine the whole game and then knowing that they'll lose the match just scoop as soon as the dragon hits the field. I don't think you should be able to scoop as soon as they summon something you know you'll lose by.

I guess I could understand wanting to but it does seem kind of rude, because then virtually everyone would scoop to it if it was something like a tournament match and then essentially try to side stuff in against if, assuming they didn't side the dragon out themselves knowing you'd just scoop to it.

This seems like it will be a very confusing argument..
 
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This is being discussed in the board, im one to say that as a rule for Victory Dragon should be that if at any time V. Dragon is played the opponent cannot scoop.
 
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Akabane said:
Well that's a good question.. It would seem a little wierd for like them to be going fine the whole game and then knowing that they'll lose the match just scoop as soon as the dragon hits the field. I don't think you should be able to scoop as soon as they summon something you know you'll lose by.

I guess I could understand wanting to but it does seem kind of rude, because then virtually everyone would scoop to it if it was something like a tournament match and then essentially try to side stuff in against if, assuming they didn't side the dragon out themselves knowing you'd just scoop to it.

This seems like it will be a very confusing argument..
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I know this is in regard to Victory Dragon, but I think a player should be able to scoop when its absolutely clear that no victory is possible. It's bad enough knowing you're going to lose to something cheap like this or Chimeratech, Stein, etc.

It happened to me 3 times.In a ROW at the Boston Shonen Jump. Chimeratech, then Ring TWICE in a match when I had the win easy, and then Stein for the match in LESS THAN 5 MINUTES. By the third, I was so frustrated that I just walked away after it was done, signed my slip, dropped, and walked away.

Sometimes I hate this game.
 
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DarkMagicUser said:
I know this is in regard to Victory Dragon, but I think a player should be able to scoop when its absolutely clear that no victory is possible. It's bad enough knowing you're going to lose to something cheap like this or Chimeratech, Stein, etc.
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To extend a match over a valid victory? Whether or not the victory is "cheap" with V. Dragon, it is still unsportmanship like, that makes for V. Dragon completely useless if a scoop is allowed.
 
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Try saying that when it happens three times in a row. It just isn't fun at all. I had 2 wins on the day yesterday, and those were against non-OTKish decks. I played a great match against a member from Team Villian (he played a Burn deck with Lava Golems) and it was cordial and lots of fun, him pulling out the victory with Poison of the Old Man (I had 200 lifepoints left after one of his turns, so I basically knew it was probably going in his favor - burn decks are that way). But at least with his deck, I was able to have a good match. The Rings were good matches as well, just kinda frustrating. We both played well and he just had the right card at the right time.

Its crazy though when 1 card can attack 10 times in a turn. That's how I lost to Chimeretech; I scooped after he declared his ten attacks (removing his monsters AND using Return from DD - it was crazy!) and I knew there was nothing I could do to stop it.

The worst was the Cyber-Stein, I lost the match in under 5 mins. I had a Skill Drain set in the second game but he Heavy Storms (it's luck, I know, but sometimes I want that luck) for the win.

I walked away but later went and found him and wished him good luck the rest of the way.

The best moment of the day though was when after I got beat by the Chimeretech deck the guy told me "we need original players I just didn't beat you with originality." Thanks for that one.

Most of this is just venting; I just have to get it off my chest.

And don't they say "he scooped" in the Metagame articles? I might be wrong on that though.

The day wasn't bad, it was just the actual gameplay that was frustrating. Made some friend and did great in trades, and the location was great.
 
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This is in heavy discussion "in places where others may not tread", so the same arguments you are voicing here, are nothing more than player feedback, so please keep on Topic, and try not to flame or trample each other, as your opinions may be used to sway any consideration for change, or, nothing at all....

And Victory Dragon is no rumor.
 
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slither said:
To extend a match over a valid victory? Whether or not the victory is "cheap" with V. Dragon, it is still unsportmanship like, that makes for V. Dragon completely useless if a scoop is allowed.
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I think to allow a card like Victory Dragon into the game takes away the essence of dueling and the ability for a player to lose one duel and yet have a chance at winning the match. How many of us came back to win two duels in a row and win the match? Allowing a card effect that eliminates that possibility is going to chase more people away than it will attract. Allow the skill of a player to decide the win and not the card effect deciding who wins. Why not allow Obelisk, Ra and Slifer back into the game? Especially Obelisk, since you're required to have card sleeves that keep you from knowing that you're drawing Obelisk.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
This is in heavy discussion "in places where others may not tread", so the same arguments you are voicing here, are nothing more than player feedback, so please keep on Topic, and try not to flame or trample each other, as your opinions may be used to sway any consideration for change, or, nothing at all....

And Victory Dragon is no rumor.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by that, Masterwoo. I'm not trying to flame or trample anyone, I was just voicing my opinions on the day and what I saw. I didn't mean for anything else.

So if that was the implication, I apologize.

Question: Would Skill Drain work against Victory Dragon? I'm assuming it would.

I also think Compulsory Evac Device would be great agaisnt Chimeretech, Victory Dragon (wait until they summon and expend resources, and pop it back to their hand for likely a free hit next turn).
 
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Im not implying anyone is doing anything. I just simply stated that "EVERYONE" should strive to give intelligent reasons as to why you support playing the Dragon to its full effect or allowing a player to concede the Duel.

Making comments like, "Man, that card will suck when it comes out", or "I dont think it should be allowed", are not good examples of supporting statements.
 
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Victory Dragon requires 3 Dragon Tributes.

Personally, I think any Deck that can get him out at the right time deserves to win. It's hard enough to get him out (particularly when he can't be Special Summoned). In a situation where Victory Dragon would go for the win (but with the 3 Dragons instead of Victory Dragon), I'd say that player is pretty much in control anyway.

Besides, it's not as though there are no ways to counter him.
 
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3 is even better. So it's not something you can splash into a deck, like Cyber Stein.

But yeah, you're right about being able to do that...if they can, the duel (match) is probably decided anyways.
 
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HorusMaster said:
I think to allow a card like Victory Dragon into the game takes away the essence of dueling and the ability for a player to lose one duel and yet have a chance at winning the match. How many of us came back to win two duels in a row and win the match? Allowing a card effect that eliminates that possibility is going to chase more people away than it will attract. Allow the skill of a player to decide the win and not the card effect deciding who wins. Why not allow Obelisk, Ra and Slifer back into the game? Especially Obelisk, since you're required to have card sleeves that keep you from knowing that you're drawing Obelisk.
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Many cards are said to take the "essence out of dueling", there is no way to keep everybody happy about it, the only way to deal with it is finding ways to counter it.

People critized BLS, CEDragon etc. they found ways to counter them when needed, KONAMI found a way to counter them by banning them in advanced format, but they created this cards to give some sort of challenge, making them useless is not a way to deal with them.
 
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No, no, I know, but in those days there weren't monsters with those similar effects like the Chaos theme either, im just emphasizing that just because a card has such an effect it shouldn't be made useless allowing a scoop if anything.

The cards as is must be playable regardless.
 
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To me its simple. A player should only be allowed to give up on his turn. If he simply packs his cards away after ending his turn and seeing what his opponent has played its not him giving up but accepting defeat in whatever way his opponent wishes to visit upon him.

Its just common sense that a person can only give up on his own turn because while it may be an idiotic statement but one single draw can change any game. Just because you wont survive to get that draw means nothing. if you dont survive then whats the point in giving up.

The giving up rules should state quite simply this......

A player may only give up on their turn during their main phase.

That way if they were attacking one of your monsters and for whatever reason they were forced to attack your VD instead and lost they still cant give up.
 
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