Victory Dragon vs. Mausoleum of the Emperor

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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
To tribute summon this card...

Only tribute summon this card....


And, so the first sentence is simpler how?
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Must be. The Mausoleum of the Emperor Ruling seems to agree that it is a "literal text", Literal being SIMPLE (as in nothing to interpret), so I guess it must be.

A lot of people argued that it could be used. I wasnt one of them. No it can't. Why continue arguing the obvious losing battle. It's not like we are still waiting for a answer.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Must be. The Mausoleum of the Emperor Ruling seems to agree that it is a "literal text", Literal being SIMPLE (as in nothing to interpret), so I guess it must be.
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I asked "how". Not :"is it"

If you can't answer that question than admit you're wrong and move on.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
I asked "how". Not :"is it"

If you can't answer that question than admit you're wrong and move on.
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It doesnt need a answer. 4. That's your answer. Does "4" make sense? It's an answer.

If you want to be ridiculous and assinine, for the sake of being assinine, you have achieved it in my eyes. The text is simple. Only someone who likes making things difficult, like Jason_C and a couple other people who prattle on about their brand of "Logic" (that are no longer with us either), would press on about a simple text that says "To Tribute Summon". I dont expect you to understand, as it isnt "College-gy" or "Philosophical" enough, meaning, it is beneath your intelligence to understand its simplicity.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
How is it making things difficult?
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Not every answer requires a 10-page Thesis. When this whole controversy started with Mausoleum of the Emperor and sprouted into other ways of avoiding a Tribute, it took me all of a few seconds to come to the conclusion that it didnt work.

Was I wrong? Apparently not. Did I need more "reasoning" to come to the conclusion I came to? No I didn't. If I didnt need a Judge List post to tell me what I already knew, then that must mean the text was simple enough to understand as "written". It only gets difficult when you are forced to apply reasoning to "why" you can't, because it doesnt need a reason. The text is the reason.

Victory Dragon cannot be Special Summoned. We know that. Do we have to ask why it can't? No, because it is written in the text. So why don't we have more people asking why it can't be Special Summoned?? Explain that one with a reason, in less than 4 words.

Now, moving on to the "To Tribute Summon". Since it can't be Special Summoned, your options are to Tribute Summon him, which falls under the category of "Normal Summon". A Tribute Summon is a Normal Summon, but a Normal Summon is not always a Tribute Summon. You cannot offer a monster to Tribute Summon a Level 4 and below Monster. This same priniciple would apply to Victory Dragon. If he can ONLY be Tribute Summoned, even if he is lowered to a Level 4 Monster, he cannot be summoned to the field.

The text is as simple as it can be. "To Tribute Summon this card, you must Tribute 3 Dragon-type Monsters."

Would it be any different if it said, "To Normal Summon this card, you must Tribute 3 Dragon-type Monsters"? When you look at the star Level, its a Level 8 Monster, which means that it must be Tribute Summoned under ordinary circumstances. Again, a Tribute Summon falls under "Normal Summon". If you sub Normal for Tribute, it still tells you that you have to Tribute 3 Dragon-type Monsters. Can you do that if you are performing a Normal Summon without Tribute? Sure you can. You are still offering monsters for something that is no longer a "Tribute Summon".

There is no effective reasoning that can be used to question why you cant Normal Summon Victory Dragon without Tribute, if Mausoleum of the Emperor doesnt work.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Would it be any different if it said, "To Normal Summon this card, you must Tribute 3 Dragon-type Monsters"?
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Hey, now that would've been nice. Or they could've used the text for the other Victory type Monsters. As for me, I'm not necessarily trying to find loopholes, it is just that we have had some weird cards that have come out that, because they are worded a certain way, have allowed a weird usage. Or cards that have the same wording as another, but are used differently BKSS. These discussions are good (without the verbal sparring) to clarify issues that may come up and find a concise way to explain when they do. Okay, MotE doesn't work, so, neither do the other meathods. Fine, we know. I think my and DaGuy's issue is that if they were trying to "simplify" the text, they didn't do a very good job of it, as there are more precise ways of saying what they said.

Thank you.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Anyway, I disagree. If you could Normal Summon him, then before they changed the text of cards like The Rock Spirit, Spirit of Flames, etc..., they could be Normal Summoned, since there was no restriction on them either. All they originally said was, "this card can only be Special Summoned by", but rational minds new better.
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Completely incorrect. There always was a restriction that said you can't normal summon, as you quoted it yourself: "this card can only be special summoned" Normal summon is not a special summon.

masterwoo0 said:
Actually, I dont recall there being a "if" statement either. like Simorgh, Bird of Divinity

Text
This card cannot be Special Summoned. If you Tribute Summon this card, the Tributes must be WIND. While this card is face-up on the field, both players take 1000 points of damage during each player's End Phase. Decrease the damage each player takes when this happens by 500 points for each Spell and Trap Card that player controls.

It "clearly" states, "To Tribute Summon". Now, as we all know, interpretation of card text is key to everything. One man's "Toe-may-toe" is another man's "Toh-mah-toh".
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-a-If you tribute summon this card, you have to"¦
-b-If you summon this card a different way, you don't have to"¦

-a-To tribute summon this card, you have to"¦
-b-To summon this card a different way, you don't have to"¦

The sentences mean the exact same thing (by letter).
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
I think my and DaGuy's issue is that if they were trying to "simplify" the text, they didn't do a very good job of it, as there are more precise ways of saying what they said.

Thank you.
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Well, I think no matter how it would have come out, it would have created some kind of word play. Now, we have the issue, and it is that it doesnt say "this", so if it gets reprinted later, it will most likely have more of a chance of finding a more appropriate text.

It's hard to think of all the ways a player thinks.

If someone says to me, "Take this car to the Grocery Store". Do I necessarily have to be the one to do it? It's just words. But it has different meaning to anyone they are spoken to.

One person might take it to mean they need to hire a Tow Truck to get it there. Another might ask if they are leaving it there. Yes, some statements need more information to clarify the intent. "Take this car to the Grocery Store and pick up your Mother outside." Without that additional bit of info, your left with too many conclusions or possible outcomes. That's what the current text of Victory Dragon has done for many people.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Completely incorrect. There always was a restriction that said you can't normal summon, as you quoted it yourself: "this card can only be special summoned" Normal summon is not a special summon.
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I dont know what card YOU have, but I have all the cards from the Original Printing of Labyrinth of Nightmare, The Rock Spirit, Aqua Spirit, etc..., and this is the text (The Rock Spirit)

"This monster can only be Special Summoned by removing 1 EARTH monster in your Graveyard from play."

It says nothing about not being able to Normal Summon it, which was the SAME argument for Victory Dragon. Why a different set of questions, if it was always understood that "this card" can't be Normal Summoned, even though it never said it couldn't?

And how many times have we been told that "can" is a option? So, if he "can" be, it doesnt have to be, and it "can" be Normal Summoned. But that isnt even the point, because we already know we can't, and now we know that Victory Dragon can't either.
 
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Sorry I'm coming back into this so late...
Masterwoo0 said:
Would it be any different if it said, "To Normal Summon this card, you must Tribute 3 Dragon-type Monsters"?
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Actually, yes, this would have made the card much more understandable and it would have prevented the necessity for the "Mausoleum" ruling. As you stated, a Tribute Summon is a form of Normal Summon. As "Mausoleum" allows you to Normal Summon, you would still be required to use the 3 Dragons.

This text would also eliminate any questions about using "Cost Down" or "Level Conversion Lab" to lower the Star Level of "Victory Dragon". Doing so would be pointless, as you would still be required to tribute 3 Dragons to Normal Summon him.
 
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skey23 said:
Sorry I'm coming back into this so late...
Actually, yes, this would have made the card much more understandable and it would have prevented the necessity for the "Mausoleum" ruling. As you stated, a Tribute Summon is a form of Normal Summon. As "Mausoleum" allows you to Normal Summon, you would still be required to use the 3 Dragons.

This text would also eliminate any questions about using "Cost Down" or "Level Conversion Lab" to lower the Star Level of "Victory Dragon". Doing so would be pointless, as you would still be required to tribute 3 Dragons to Normal Summon him.
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Actually, I thought I said it would... :huh

I think it would have been better that way also.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Actually, I thought I said it would... :huh

I think it would have been better that way also.
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Um, I don't see where you said it would..lol...sorry. I didn't realize you were agreeing that it would have been better worded that way.
 
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skey23 said:
Um, I don't see where you said it would..lol...sorry. I didn't realize you were agreeing that it would have been better worded that way.
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Me said:
Would it be any different if it said, "To Normal Summon this card, you must Tribute 3 Dragon-type Monsters"? When you look at the star Level, its a Level 8 Monster, which means that it must be Tribute Summoned under ordinary circumstances. Again, a Tribute Summon falls under "Normal Summon". If you sub Normal for Tribute, it still tells you that you have to Tribute 3 Dragon-type Monsters. Can you do that if you are performing a Normal Summon without Tribute? Sure you can. You are still offering monsters for something that is no longer a "Tribute Summon".
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There it is!!! lol

Maybe they will reprint it with something like that in the future.
 
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Only (onelook.com):
adjective: exclusive of anyone or anything else
adverb: with nevertheless the final result

This card can only be special summoned"¦

This card's summon is exclusive of anything other than this special summon"¦

This card's summon can have the result of a special summon"¦

The conclusion based on the text was still that you could not normal summon or set the card. It doesn't precisely say which set is being limited by only (e.g. to a logical extreme you could argue that you couldn't attack, change its position, because its special summon was the only thing you could do with the card. i.e. The set of everything), but we're expected to be able to figure that out ourselves. There was never a reason to believe you could normal summon it.
 
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Where are people getting the idea from that you cannot Normal Summon Victory Dragon by using 2 Cost Downs? 2 Cost Downs would make it a Level 4 monster, which according to the rules would be a Normal Summon instead of a Tribute Summon. Since Victory Dragon says nothing about Normal Summons, it is assumed that it is entirely possible to Normal Summon it if somehow you were able to bring its Level to 4 or lower.

It also says nothing about Tribute Sets. You can Tribute any 2 monsters to Tribute set Victory Dragon. This is the logical conclusion of Victory Dragon's text.

The only restrictions are that Special Summons are forbidden (irrelevant here), and that if you Tribute Summon Victory Dragon (which is perhaps most likely) then you MUST Tribute 3 Dragon-Type monsters to do so. A Tribute Summon will only be the case if the monster's Level is 5 or more. As I mentioned at the start of this post, 2 Cost Downs will make its Level 4, and thus Normal Summonable instead of Tribute Summonable.



The question is, is Victory Dragon's text absolutely correct? Should it have a "You can only Tribute Summon this card" clause?
 
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Maruno said:
Where are people getting the idea from that you cannot Normal Summon Victory Dragon by using 2 Cost Downs? 2 Cost Downs would make it a Level 4 monster, which according to the rules would be a Normal Summon instead of a Tribute Summon. Since Victory Dragon says nothing about Normal Summons, it is assumed that it is entirely possible to Normal Summon it if somehow you were able to bring its Level to 4 or lower.

It also says nothing about Tribute Sets. You can Tribute any 2 monsters to Tribute set Victory Dragon. This is the logical conclusion of Victory Dragon's text.

The only restrictions are that Special Summons are forbidden (irrelevant here), and that if you Tribute Summon Victory Dragon (which is perhaps most likely) then you MUST Tribute 3 Dragon-Type monsters to do so. A Tribute Summon will only be the case if the monster's Level is 5 or more. As I mentioned at the start of this post, 2 Cost Downs will make its Level 4, and thus Normal Summonable instead of Tribute Summonable.



The question is, is Victory Dragon's text absolutely correct? Should it have a "You can only Tribute Summon this card" clause?
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If you can't "Normal Summon" Victory Dragon with Mausoleum of the Emperor, then why would you be able to with Cost Down? There is no difference, and if you say that it has to do with only being able to Tribute Dragon Monsters. that still applies whether he is a Level 4 or Level 8, which means that you wouldnt be able to summon him as a Level 4.

Just in case you havent see this


This is a debate going on for awhile. Victory Dragon specifies that "To
Tribute Summon this card, you must Tribute 3 Dragon-Type monsters." My
Question is can it be "Normal Summoned" by Mausoleum of the Emporer for
3,000 Life points.

I want to finally put this debate to rest.



----------------------------------------------------------------
Answer:

You cannot Normal Summon "Victory Dragon" with the effect of "Mausoleum of the Emperor".


This has been added to the FAQ under "Mausoleum of the Emperor."


---------------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Rules Dude
CurtisSchultz_netrep@Hotmail.com
 
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I did see that, yes. I temporarily forgot the wording/rulings of Mausoleum of the Emperor, though.

So the only way to resolve this is to claim the lack of a necessary "This card cannot be Summoned except by Tribute Summon" sentence. These recent card translations are all just really shoddy.
 
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Maruno said:
I did see that, yes. I temporarily forgot the wording/rulings of Mausoleum of the Emperor, though.

So the only way to resolve this is to claim the lack of a necessary "This card cannot be Summoned except by Tribute Summon" sentence. These recent card translations are all just really shoddy.
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Absolutely. I mean, how many times will we have to explain Linear Accelerator Cannon???
 
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this is what victory dragon says

thus card cannot be special summoned. to tribute summon this card,you must tribute three dragon type monsters.
if this card attacks your opponent directly and reduces their life
points to zero you win the match.

i don't see why you couldn't use massalium of the emperor to summon it. its an eight star so thats 2000 live points.

looking at the cards text its doesn't say that you only get it,s effect when it's tribute summoned by tribute three dragon type monsters.

so i should be able to pay 2000 life points attack dirrectly to win the duel and match in the first duel.
 
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