Victory Viper XX03 and Limiter Removal...

T

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
Alright, just wondering something about this card.

Just an interesting idea.

I activate Power Capsule and select my face up Victory Viper XX03 and also choose the third effect of Victory Viper XX03 for Power Capsule. I then attack my opponent's monster and activate Limiter Removal in the Damage Step. I destroy their monster. I activate my third effect of Victory Viper XX03 and Special Summon 1 Option Token. Then Power Capsule Special Summons 1 Option Token as well.

Now I would have two Option Tokens at 2400 attack a piece correct?
 
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Since the effect doesnt state "Original Attack", when Limiter Removal boost victory viper xx03 up to 2400, the Special Summoned Option Token before Limiter Removals effect, is at 1200 and second one at 2400 because it says they will always have the same attack of the victory viper xx03, which is 2400.
 
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Victory Viper XX03
Effect Monster (Machine / LIGHT / 4 Stars / ATK 1200 / DEF 1000)
"¢ Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card.


So if there's a Vic Viper at 2400 atk than any option token would have 2400 ATK, because it ALWAYS has the same ATK.

It doesn't matter what ATK was there when the token was summoned.

Both tokens will have 2400 ATK.
 
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Yeah, that sounds about right. I was thinking that Power Capsule's effect would work when Victory Viper destroyed a monster in battle.

But since we're still on the subject of Victory Viper, I was wondering about this.

Victory Viper XX03 attacks a face down Newdoria.

SEGOC would occur since both Victory Viper and Newdoria are mandatory effects. Turn Player is going to attempt to Special Summon an Option Token.

Victory Viper is Chain Link 1 and Newdoria is Chain Link 2.

Newdoria resolves and destroys Victory Viper. Turn Player Special Summons an Option Token.

Now, this is what I was wondering about. Because of cards like Newdoria, Gravekeeper's Spy, Cyber Phoenix, etc. might increase in play will prove to make this scenario valuable information.

I'd say that the Option Token summoning effect wouldn't be an option to use since Victory Viper XX03 requires to be on the field for those Tokens to remain on the field. This is evident when Victory Viper XX03 leaves the field or is flipped face down. The tokens would disappear. However, since the Option Tokens never were Special Summoned during the time Victory Viper XX03 was on the field, I would also assume it's possible to allow them to summon.

@_@ I hate this.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Victory Viper XX03
Effect Monster (Machine / LIGHT / 4 Stars / ATK 1200 / DEF 1000)
"¢ Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card.


So if there's a Vic Viper at 2400 atk than any option token would have 2400 ATK, because it ALWAYS has the same ATK.

It doesn't matter what ATK was there when the token was summoned.

Both tokens will have 2400 ATK.
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Yeah, I was thinking about that just now because it reminds me a lot like Gradius' Option.
 
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At first, I thought the same thing, but the "always" doesnt indicate that it has a "self adjusting" effect, just that when it is "summoned" it always has the same attack as the Victory Viper XX03, and when the 1st Option Token was summoned by the effect of Power Capsule, he was 1200.

Even Gradius Option's effect is not self adjusting, if you look at the Ruling for Amazoness Spellcaster.
 
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slither said:
Amazoness Spellcaster was what I was thinking of too.
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Now, of course, since Limiter Removal was activated, the Option Token will increase its attack by 1200 (since it is a Machine Monster as well), but this has nothing to do with Victory Viper XX03, and more to do with Limiter Removal's effect.

I think we both forgot about that part....
 
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masterwoo0 said:
At first, I thought the same thing, but the "always" doesnt indicate that it has a "self adjusting" effect, just that when it is "summoned" it always has the same attack as the Victory Viper XX03, and when it was summoned by the effect of Power Capsule, he was 1200.

Even Gradius Option's effect is not self adjusting, if you look at the Ruling for Amazoness Spellcaster.
Click to expand...

Always means always.

"¢ You can select "Gradius' Option" as the other monster, and the original ATK of the Amazoness will now be the ATK of "Gradius' Option" at the time "Amazoness Spellcaster" resolves. The ATK of "Gradius' Option" remains as the ATK of "Gradius" and does not become the ATK of the Amazoness.

It certainly is self-adjusting:

"¢ The ATK/DEF of "Gradius' Option" is the same as the current ATK/DEF of the selected "Gradius", not the original ATK/DEF. So if you equip "Axe of Despair" to "Gradius", the ATK of "Gradius' Option" will also increase by 1000 points.

READ: Increasing Vic Viper's ATK increases Option tokens ATK.

"¢ Equipping "Axe of Despair" to "Gradius' Option" has no purpose. Activating "Reinforcements" targeting "Gradius' Option" serves no purpose. "Luminous Spark" on the field will not change the ATK/DEF of "Gradius' Option". It always has the same ATK/DEF of the selected "Gradius".

READ: Limiter Removal has no ATK changing effect on Option Token
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Always means always.

"¢ You can select "Gradius' Option" as the other monster, and the original ATK of the Amazoness will now be the ATK of "Gradius' Option" at the time "Amazoness Spellcaster" resolves. The ATK of "Gradius' Option" remains as the ATK of "Gradius" and does not become the ATK of the Amazoness.

It certainly is self-adjusting:

"¢ The ATK/DEF of "Gradius' Option" is the same as the current ATK/DEF of the selected "Gradius", not the original ATK/DEF. So if you equip "Axe of Despair" to "Gradius", the ATK of "Gradius' Option" will also increase by 1000 points.
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While I'm certainly not in the mood to debate this, there is no proof of a self adjusting effect. There is nothing to suggest past the initial summon that Gradius Option OR the Option Token continue to increase or decrease their attack. I believe it is only at the summon that the attack is determined.

And with that, I await a ruling from the Judge List, since I wont be satisfied with "always" meaning everytime the attack changes. But, if that is not enough of a statement, then, "I officially agree to disagree."
 
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What is there to debate, the card saysa always, so play that it means always.

You have absolutely no reason to believe anything else.

The burden of proof would fall on anyone who claims otherwise.
Ruling the card any other way would simply be unfair to any players.
 
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Lol, once again that's what I was thinking. It seems to be more like how Gradius' Option maintains an attack value than it does with Amazoness Spellcaster.

Gradius' Option is self adjusting its attack and defense to match that of Gradius. Option Tokens do the same with Victory Viper XX03. The mechanics are virtually the same.

There isn't any language problem with the card. It does what it does by the face value of what it says.

I'm still wondering if Victory Viper would activate it if attacked a monster like Newdoria and you'd have the ability to use the Token summoning effect.

Tkwiget said:
Now, this is what I was wondering about. Because of cards like Newdoria, Gravekeeper's Spy, Cyber Phoenix, etc. might increase in play will prove to make this scenario valuable information.

I'd say that the Option Token summoning effect wouldn't be an option to use since Victory Viper XX03 requires to be on the field for those Tokens to remain on the field. This is evident when Victory Viper XX03 leaves the field or is flipped face down. The tokens would disappear. However, since the Option Tokens never were Special Summoned during the time Victory Viper XX03 was on the field, I would also assume it's possible to allow them to summon.
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There's your re-cap of what I was asking for that kind of scenario.
 
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"¢ "Victory Viper XX03's" effect activates during the Damage Step when the monster it destroys in battle is sent to the Graveyard.

Newdoria
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 4 Stars / ATK 1200 / DEF 800)
When this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, destroy 1 monster on the field.


Turn Player Mandatory
Opponent Mandatory

Resolve

Newdoria destroys Victory Viper XX03

Victory Viper is no longer face-up on the field when his effect resolves, so the effect should disappear.
 
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Yeah, but...

If "Victory Viper XX03" leaves the field or is flipped face-down, all of its Option Tokens disappear. (Note that they are not "destroyed".)

That's implying that Victory Viper would leave the field after you have one or more Option Tokens on the field already. This isn't covering the scenario where Victory Viper is being destroyed from attacking another Attack Positioned 1200 attacker or Newdoria-type monsters.

Now I'm not saying that the Option Token would be summoned or not, but I don't see any indication of solid mechanics whether the token would be summoned or not.

I do feel that if the Token is summoned that it would disappear immediately afterwards since the Victory Viper it's connected to isn't face up on the field anymore when the effect resolves.

On the other side is if the Token doesn't summon at all because the option of activating that effect doesn't exist while Victory Viper is not face up on the field.

However, ultimately I 'feel' more like the Token summons and then disappears, but I'm totally confused on the whole matter.
 
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Tkwiget said:
However, ultimately I 'feel' more like the Token summons and then disappears, but I'm totally confused on the whole matter.
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Can a monster exist without a Level, Type nor Attribute?

I would have to say no, so there would be no ability for a token to ever be on the field no matter how brief without those characteristics.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
The effect activated when Newdoria was sent to the Graveyard. No choice.
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But you're supposed to choose which effect to activate.

Can you choose the first or third(edit) option, or do you have to choose option number 2 (if available)?

Edit:

Nevermind:
"¢ You cannot choose an effect you cannot fulfill, so if you have no cards in your hand, you cannot choose to discard for "Dark Coffin".
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
But you're supposed to choose which effect to activate.

Can you choose the first or second option, or do you have to choose option number 2 (if available)?
Click to expand...
I only see effect #2 as the only effect capable of resolving.
 
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