Victory Viper XX03 and Limiter Removal...

T

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
Alright, just wondering something about this card.

Just an interesting idea.

I activate Power Capsule and select my face up Victory Viper XX03 and also choose the third effect of Victory Viper XX03 for Power Capsule. I then attack my opponent's monster and activate Limiter Removal in the Damage Step. I destroy their monster. I activate my third effect of Victory Viper XX03 and Special Summon 1 Option Token. Then Power Capsule Special Summons 1 Option Token as well.

Now I would have two Option Tokens at 2400 attack a piece correct?
 
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So if Victory Viper XX03 attacks a 1200 attack Attack Position monster or something like Newdoria or Man-Eater Bug-type effect, the only viable effect to activate and resolve would be Victory Viper XX03's second effect?

=P

EDIT: Now what about this scenario?

Turn Player has a Victory Viper XX03 and Creature Swap in hand. He already has a Victory Viper XX03 on the field. He summons Victory Viper XX03 from his hand and activates Creature Swap. Takes control of whatever the opponent gives him and gives him one of his Victory Viper monsters. He attacks Victory Viper with Victory Viper and both are at 1200 attack.

I believe since it doesn't say anything about what Graveyard Victory Viper has send he monster it destroys. However, since both Victory Viper are destroyed and go to the Turn Player's Graveyard, one would assume that Turn Player would get both initial instances where he could activate the second effect of each Victory Viper copy. However, I disagree with that because of one card. Apprentice Magician. =P

Thoughts on this?
 
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Apprentice magician activates BEFORE it is sent to the graveyard, that's the only reason the controller matters.

Since Vic Viper is a graveyard effect, it works like Mystic Tomato or Nimble Momonga, the owner activates it.
 
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Ummm...Victory Viper doesn't have any reference to the Graveyard.

When this card destroys an opponent's monster as a result of battle, select and activate 1 of the following effects:
- Increase the ATK of this card by 400 points.
- Destroy 1 face-up Spell or Trap Card on the field.
- Special Summon 1 "Option Token" to your side of the field. It always has the same Type, Attribute, Level, ATK and DEF as this card.


When this card is successfully Normal Summoned, Flip Summoned, or Special Summoned, put 1 Spell Counter on a face-up card on the field that you can put a Spell Counter on. If this card is destroyed in battle, you can select 1 Level 2 or lower Spellcaster-Type monster from your Deck and Special Summon it to the field in face-down Defense Position.

Victory Viper isn't a Graveyard effect. Here's a ruling under Apprentice Magician.

 Because "Apprentice Magician"'s effect is not a Graveyard effect, the controller of "Apprentice Magician" at the time it is destroyed as a result of battle gets its effect. So if I take control of my opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then I Special Summon, not the original owner.

As you can see, both of the cards are not graveyard effects because the effect of Apprentice Magician will activate and resolve even if something like Banisher of the Light or Dimensional Fissure is face up on the field. Victory Viper is the same way, if a Victory Viper attacks another Attack Positioned Victory Viper, the Non-Turn Player and the Turn Player will control one of the three effects of the respected Victory Viper they control.

This is like that whole ruling of Apprentice Magician getting Creature Swapped and then attacked. The opponent still gets the effect of Apprentice Magician because they controlled it and it isn't a Graveyard Effect. Victory Viper is the same way because of how it's worded.

However, that's just my opinion. =/
 
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Right, it's not a graveyard effect.. (i was thinking it got one effect when it was destroyed like certain other machine cards in this set)

However, it does activate in the send to graveyard step:
"¢ "Victory Viper XX03's" effect activates during the Damage Step when the monster it destroys in battle is sent to the Graveyard.

Apprentice magician is irrelevant in this case, but you're right that it will be the controllers (not the owner that get its effect, because it matters where the card was when the effect was triggered, not when it really activates.

(it was asked on the judge's list:
If your opponent play Change of heart on your face-down monster, you chain Desert Sunlight. YOU will control the flip effect of the monster, even though it will activate when the monster was on your opponent's side of the field)
 
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Made a mistake (by accidentally pressing a Moderator button without realising it), the posts will reappear when i figure out how to fix it... (more like "IF")

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Right, it's not a graveyard effect.. (i was thinking it got one effect when it was destroyed like certain other machine cards in this set)

However, it does activate in the send to graveyard step:
"¢ "Victory Viper XX03's" effect activates during the Damage Step when the monster it destroys in battle is sent to the Graveyard.

Apprentice magician is irrelevant in this case, but you're right that it will be the controllers (not the owner that get its effect, because it matters where the card was when the effect was triggered, not when it really activates.

(it was asked on the judge's list:
If your opponent play Change of heart on your face-down monster, you chain Desert Sunlight. YOU will control the flip effect of the monster, even though it will activate when the monster was on your opponent's side of the field)

Thankyou to Masterwo0 for pointing out that I shouldn't have said Ceasefire in that last paragraph. As there would not be any "FLIP:" effects to control if it were ceasefire.

Unfortunately, due to some clumsiness with the mouse on my part his post has become cybernetic oblivion.

My apologies.
 
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And yet, they have that ruling that says that the monster must go to the Graveyard when it says in Victory Viper's text that the monster doesn't have to be. It just says that the monster has to be destroyed as a result of battle.

It isn't consistant with Apprentice Magician. Both monsters don't require the Graveyard in order for their effects to activate. I don't see the point of that Victory Viper ruling. The ruling is making the card sound like the monster has to hit the Graveyard in order for it to activate. However, if this is just mentioning the location of where in the Damage Step Victory Viper is activating, then I'll agree with that. Since that's consistant with how other monsters with similar wording work.

A pretty simple scenario would be Apprentice Magician v.s. Lesser Fiend. You get the idea.

But I'm wondering if that ruling is just telling us where in the Damage Step Victory Viper is activating and not how it activates.
 
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Okay hold on a second. Victory Viper's effect requires that it still be on the field when the destroyed monster is sent to the graveyard in order to Trigger. If Victory Viper is destroyed in Damage Calculation it won't be able to trigger at all. So a suicide run won't get any effect.
 
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For it's first and third effect yes. The second effect doesn't require it to be on the field in order to activate and resolve. You are merely targetting a Spell or Trap card on the field and destroying it.

With the first effect you're increasing attack points of Victory Viper XX03 by 400 points. With the third effect you're Special Summoning an Option Token. Both are solely dependant upon Victory Viper XX03 being on the field. The second effect doesn't have this restriction.
 
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anthonyj said:
Okay hold on a second. Victory Viper's effect requires that it still be on the field when the destroyed monster is sent to the graveyard in order to Trigger. If Victory Viper is destroyed in Damage Calculation it won't be able to trigger at all. So a suicide run won't get any effect.
Click to expand...

Victory Viper is a "Trigger effect".

Once the trigger has been met, the card decides that it is going to activate, and as long as there are no effect preventing activation, it will activate no matter where the card is when the activation occurs.

The trigger happens when the monster is destroyed in battle, even though the card cannot activate then.

This is similar to FLIP: effects. They are flipped, and thus triggered, before damage calculation, yet they have to wait until after damage calculation to activate.
 
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No if it also is destroyed in the battle it will NOT activate.

The reason being is that the effect triggers when the monster is sent to the Graveyard, NOT when it destroyed as a result of battle, and at that point Victory Viper would not be face-up.

It is not like a "FLIP:" efect at all, in that it requires Victroy Viper to be alive and well when the monster is sent.
 
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I will look into it more, Chainsaw is very odd.

Especially this ruling:

"If the opponent controls your "Chainsaw Insect" and it is destroyed as a result of battle, it will be sent to your Graveyard before the end of the Damage Step and its effect will activate there. So when its effect activates, since it is in your Graveyard, your opponent (who controlled it during the battle) will draw the 1 card."

Traditionally the text of Chainsaw would activate prior to Damage Calculation if it was a Trigger.

Plus the controller of an effect traditionally goes to the controller of the card at the time of the triggering event NOT "when the effect activates" and is placed on the Chain Block.

There is something VERY erroneous about this.

Good old Konami...
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Then that makes his, and Chainsaw Insect's effect inconsistent (as I was trying to use the same logic on him as well, and turned out wrong... :cog_cryin ).
Click to expand...

Chainsaw Insect is very different then monsters that trigger when the monster they destroyed by battle is sent to the graveyard. Chainsaw insect will activate from the graveyard or out of play after it has had it's "in battle" requirement met. It has already been satisfied and is simply waiting for the appropriate time to do it's thing. It is nothing at all like the group that share similarities with Victory Viper for example:

[Re: Desertapir] If "Mystical Knight of Jackal" or "Ghost Knight of Jackal" attacks, and is flipped face-down by "Desertapir", the attacking monster is no longer face-up when "Desertapir" is sent to the Graveyard (which is when their effects activate), so their effects do not apply to "Desertapir".

If "Shinato, King of a Higher Plane" is destroyed before monsters are sent to the Graveyard, for example if removed from play by "D.D. Warrior Lady", his effect does not activate. But if "Shinato, King of a Higher Plane" attacks "Yomi Ship", "Shinato, King of a Higher Plane" inflicts the damage from his effect even though he will be destroyed by "Yomi Ship"'s effect after "Yomi Ship" is sent to the Graveyard.

If "Insect Queen" destroys a monster but is not on the field during the End Phase, no Insect Monster Token is Special Summoned.
 
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