Voltanis the Adjudicator

[ChaosMachine]

Can he be special summoned on my oppents turn? A side question....DD Warrior Lady Attacks Night Assailant? Graveyard or removed from play? Thanks as always.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

So then you are suggesting that we have two separate mechanics. One that says if you attempt to Normal Summon a monster, and it is negated, the game state remembers the summon attempt, so you will not get another Normal Summon, but, if you attempt to activate a Spell Card, and the activation is negated (which is pretty much the same thing as negating a summon), the game state will forget it ever happened, even though the card itself is still part of the Chain Link...

Oh not at all, there' no difference, its the exact same for both cases:

A player declares an attempt to summon a monster/ activate a card, and that cannot be erased. (you don't get costs back, you don't get a discard refunded, you don't get your once per turn "ticket" for a summon back)

But the game forgets that anything happened as a direct consequence of that attempt. The activation and summon never happened. For the latter a player just doesn't have the resources needed to perform a summon as it was spent meaninglessly already.

No difference in mechanics.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

The history isn't about what card effects were activated, it's about what cards were activated.

And if the card were never activated, it doesn't have a chain link.

The activation of a card is what creates a chain link, no activation of a card, then no chain link had been created for that card. Once the counter trap resolves, the activation never existed. It didn't even exist before the Counter Trap resolved. (even though it exists before the counter trap resolves.)


Bumping the chicken off the plate would be negating the effect of a card. Ryu-Senshi, Dark Balter, Royal Decree etc.. can do that.
Counter Traps do not, they go steal the chicken before it even got cooked. If there was never any chicken to serve, there should be no plate for that chicken.

 

[Maruno]

It's all some kind of temporal paradox, and those very rarely make sense.

Is there any kind of dispute over how Chains work, or is everyone happy with the way they work and I'm just arguing pointlessly?

 

[Kyhotae]

I completely agree with you. There is still a chain link whether or not an effect was negated. This "the game thinks it 'never happened'" idea is ridiculous. If the the game thought it didn't happen, it wouldn't let the negator negate it because there's nothing to negate (that temporal paradox that doesn't work). The chain link is there, that's why all the rules say that negators have to be the very next chain link from the card they're negating to work. They don't erase the chain link, they erase the card and its effect.

 

[masterwoo0]

Well, this all goes back to the basic mechanic of "cards in a chain are not removed until the resolution of the chain."

So, if you played Heavy Storm, and your opponent activates Waboku in a chain to Heavy Storm, and you follow that up by chaining Seven Tools of the Bandit, does that mean we simply skip to Heavy Storm destroying everything after Seven Tool's resolves?

P1 activates Heavy Storm

P2 Chain's Waboku

P1 Chain's Seven Tools of the Bandit

RSOLVE

Seven Tools of the Bandit negate's and destroy's Waboku

Waboku's effect cannot resolve since the Trap Card has been negated

Heavy Storm destroy's Seven Tools of the Bandit

 

[Maruno]

Yes, Waboku's effect cannot resolve, but there's still a space in there where Waboku's effect would have been. That's the empty Chain Link I'm going on about. It does nothing to the game, but it's there because Waboku created it. The fact that Waboku's activation and effect were since negated is irrelevant, since Waboku also created that Chain Link, and that creation can never be negated (otherwise we're into paradoxes and other strange phenomena concerning Chain Link numbers).

 

[John Danker]

.....and that creation can never be negated (otherwise we're into paradoxes and other strange phenomena concerning Chain Link numbers).

Oh, you mean like a flip summoned Sangan that had it's summon negated by Horn Of Heaven and doesn't get it's effect when sent to the graveyard because....it was never on the field (erie organ music)...so where WAS it for the previous turn....in the TWILIGHT ZONE <sinister laugh> BooHAHAHAHA!

Let's not put anything past the rules and logic (or lack of) in the game of Yugioh eh?

 

[Maruno]

Oh, you mean like a flip summoned Sangan that had it's summon negated by Horn Of Heaven and doesn't get it's effect when sent to the graveyard because....it was never on the field (erie organ music)...so where WAS it for the previous turn....in the TWILIGHT ZONE <sinister laugh> BooHAHAHAHA!

Let's not put anything past the rules and logic (or lack of) in the game of Yugioh eh?

Well, possibly not. Summons don't use the Chain, as we well know, so applying what I've been saying to a Summon makes no sense.

But you might have been on about the paradox thing instead.

Perhaps Sangan passes into the "Summon Zone", a mythical place about an inch higher than the field mat, through which all Summons pass. Or even generalise it to the "Activity Zone", and make it the place where Chain Links are created as well.

Or not.

I agree with your last comment, though.

 

[soulwarrior]

Well, we have a German tradition for things like these...

if there's no argument that is 'better' and therefore able to convince your 'discussion partner' that you are wrong, we always start betting. ^^
These questions can only be asked by making a ruling on the list (well, that's YGO), so don't try to get angry and discuss for years with no end near... and have some fun betting on ****tails (or something else, if you prefer). xD

So all I'm saying is that I don't think what DaGuyWitBluGlasses is right in a very funny and not aggressive way; even negated cards generate chain links, just as Maruno explained (and I hate him for that, I will think the rest of the day of Chicken Wings... -.-).

Are you with me? ^^

What do we want to throw in the pool? xD

soul