Writing down opponent's cards

[YataGirl]

Can you write down your opponent's cards when you activate Cyber Jar, Forcefull, or Confiscation?

 

[densetsu_x]

There was a whole thread on this on the mailing list not that long ago... I'll see if I can find it but at the moment I'm leaning towards "no"... you're really not allowed to do that...

- A

 

[deckmaster]

If Yu-Gi-Oh follows the norm of other card games then writing down cards would be a no-no. Of course, the most relevant data (cards played) can be found in the graveyard which can be checked at any time (except when question is played).

 

[masterwoo0]

There was a whole thread on this on the mailing list not that long ago... I'll see if I can find it but at the moment I'm leaning towards "no"... you're really not allowed to do that...

- A

The post referred to "taking notes", and the answer was that you were allowed to do so, at the Judges descretion:



From:  "Charsky, Alex" <alex_charsky@u...>
Date:  Wed Sep 15, 2004  6:16 pm
Subject:  RE: [UDE YGO Judge's List] Re: Writing down things?


Folks,

Lets use some common sense. There is no way that I as a head judge would
ever allow someone to write down the contents of their opponent's deck.

This doesn't mean that I wouldn't allow someone to take brief notes on the
game as long as they don't delay the tournament for me. Occasionally players
want to post tournament reports, so to encourage this, I would allow players
to write down small notes. Once again, notes should never delay the
tournament.

Currently the policy does not cover note taking. This is okay. Not
everything in judging will be black and white. This is why we have judges.
It's okay to allow note taking as a head judge. It's okay to disallow note
taking as a head judge. Instruct players to check with you, or make a small
announcement at the beginning of the tournament. Most local game shop
regulars will know your policy on notes after a few events and will let new
players know.

This really is a very small issue. It's expected that you as a judge should
be able to handle this.

Take care,

Alex Charsky
Tournament Commissioner
Upper Deck Entertainment
alex_charsky@u...

 

[masterwoo0]

Here is the cause of the debate itself. The first email from Alex was the "Ruling":


From: "Charsky, Alex" <alex_charsky@u...>
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:15 pm
Subject: Take notes in UDE matches


Folks,

After a number of discussions about this issue at the office we have decided
on a no notes allowed policy for UDE games.

This means the only thing that players are allowed to write down are their
life points on paper.

Players are not allowed to write down contents of their opponent's hands
after an effect allows them to look at it.

Take Care,

Alex Charsky
Tournament Commissioner
Upper Deck Entertainment
alex_charsky@u...



From: "Gary H" <fantasyzz@a...>
Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:23 pm
Subject: Re: Writing down things?


--- In ude_yu-gi-oh_tcg_judge_list@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lucas"
<MewtwoStruckBack@a...> wrote:
>
> I must disagree with you.
>
> It was declared earlier that players were only allowed to keep track
> of Life Points on paper and no other notes. (Which stinks for me,
> because it destroys my "use Dark Designator, call a card no one uses,
> force opponent to show me their Deck and copy their Deck List" combo.)
>
> ~Michael Lucas
>
>


as a Head Judge, i'm rather glad you pointed this out...

i originally had a problem with the 'taking notes' policy, since in
other games it was deemed acceptable to use a card similar to
Confiscation, see the opponent's hand, then take small notes regarding
what the opponent had, which i would allow AFTER the effect, not
during, and therefore they had to remember what the opponent had in
their hand, not during the resolution of the effect.

but a card like Dark Designator (which i really have no idea what the
strategy could be, besides what you're referring to) and your comment
about using the time to write the deck down (which btw, would not be
allowed at all, but the ruling could be used for discussion and
appeal) makes me completely rethink the entire 'taking notes' policy.

thank you for an insight that had earlier escaped me, and i'm sure
that a number of Head Judges along with most likely all judges right
down the line, to reconsider the what i would have thought to be a
small issue, and could be perverted into something very
unsportsmanlike in the end.

from this point on, i will be siding with the 'no notes' argument, and
making sure that all judges are aware of this kind of blatant improper
use of a rather insignificant ruling.

gary "Mr. Wheat" haynes

 

[densetsu_x]

Thanks for finding those.

Since "Policy" is determined by the most recent posting, the current one then is what masterwoo0 posted first... that some notes are allowable, but it is up to the Head Judge's discrestion.. In no case is it allowable to write down the contents of their entire deck.

- A

 

[Judicator]

So I guess the safe way to play it is to ask the Head Judge at the tournaments for their policies?

 

[Trippingbillies]

So I guess the safe way to play it is to ask the Head Judge at the tournaments for their policies?

That would be best.

More often than not, when you run into a problem that isn't mentioned in the official policy documents the decision on how to handle the problem will fall upon the Head Judge.

So if you want to take notes, for whatever reason, it would be best to clear the matter with the Head Judge before the first round of the event.

 

[krazykidpsx]

dude that be way cheating.

people with mind crush or d. d. designators will never have to worry about mistaken the card in their opponents hand.

also who would want to sit down and make their opponent mad by writting down what they have.

why not tell them, play with an open hand.

 

[Blue-Eyes Black]

dude that be way cheating.

people with mind crush or d. d. designators will never have to worry about mistaken the card in their opponents hand.

also who would want to sit down and make their opponent mad by writting down what they have.

why not tell them, play with an open hand.

While it's true it helps out with "name X card/card type/etc."-type cards, it does not help beyond that since most other effects are choosing cards at random. Besides, the fastest thing to do would be note what you want to check for, then activate an effect that you know your opponent can't satisfy (example: Emissary of the Afterlife if you KNOW they have no Level 3 or lower Normal Monsters) and look through their deck. Then as fast as you can look through it, keeping note of what you want to check for. Don't write anything down until after you have searched. Then write down what you find.

Example: You have two Chain Destructions, a Nobleman of Crossout, and Exchange in your hand. You have a Set Call of the Haunted and a Set Monster Reborn with Cannon Soldier and Emissary of the Afterlife in your Graveyard. You want to find the right time to activate your in-hand cards. On a piece of notebook paper, you note that you want to check for the number of Flip Effect monsters, which ones are run in multiples, and how many monsters that have 2000 ATK or less and are run in multiples.

Right now your paper should look like this:

Flip Effect Monsters:
Mulitples?:
2000 ATK & Multiples?:


You Set 1 Chain Destruction and your Nobleman of Crossout. You then activate Exchange. Quickly you note he has 1 Magician of Faith and 2 Man-Eater Bug and a Jinzo. He gives you the Jinzo and you give him Chain Destruction.

At this point I'd have written down:

Flip Effect Monsters: MoF, MEB
Multiples: N, Y (2)
2000 ATK & Multiples?: MEB

You activate Monster Reborn and get back Cannon Soldier. You activate Call of the Haunted and get Emissary of the Afterlife. You Tribute Emissary and get its effect. Of course, your opponent has no legal monsters and gives you the deck to make sure there aren't.

QUICKLY, you find he has 1 more Magician of Faith, 1 more MEB, and 3 Needle Worms (we're jumping into the future to November when it's possible to have 3 Needle Worms without breaking the bank). He also has 3 Pyramid Turtles.

After looking through his deck and shuffling it, you write down:

Flip Effect Monsters: MoF, MEB
Multiples?: Y (3), Y (3)
2000 ATK & Multiples?: MoF (3, 1 ID 1 H), MEB (3, 2 ID), Pyr Tu (3)



Note how I abbreviated everything? You can't just leisurely write down the whole contents of the opponent's deck and hand. You could be called for illegal stalling. You'll have to be VERY quick about it, so it's best to use abbreviations you can quickly remember. Here "ID" means "In Deck" and "H" means "Hand."

 

[krazykidpsx]

but why would you need to write your opponents contents?

simple abbreviations and looking at your opponents hand will let you beat up your opponent with mind crush and d d designator.

not to mention you will always be ready.

you will know what your opponent has so whats the beef.

I see it as this way. If oviously the only opend ended information in this game is the graveyard why the heck would they make the players hand opend info too?

 

[Blue-Eyes Black]

I see it as this way. If oviously the only opend ended information in this game is the graveyard why the heck would they make the players hand opend info too?

You are right. The only "opend ended information" is the Graveyard. You can check either your or your opponent's Graveyard at any time.

However, the hand is not considered open-ended information. When a card effect tells you to look at your opponent's hand, you do it ONCE and then write down QUICKLY what you saw. It does not give you a license to look at your opponent's hand whenever you want. Remember: Every time your opponent draws a card and keeps using the cards you saw, eventually you'll not know what's in his hand until you use another effect that lets you look at the hand ONCE.

 

[krazykidpsx]

yea but why the need to write down what you had seen?

if you dont have a good memory to remember then thats your biggie.

i would be kinda bothered if that were to happened to me. becuase come on, its like, he just saw all possible combinations i can do, and to make it worse he writes down what i have so he never forgets.

untill i rush through my hand like an ediot for a very long time my opponent will know what i have.

 

[spotsknight]

<SNIP>On a piece of notebook paper, you note that you want to check for the number of Flip Effect monsters, which ones are run in multiples, and how many monsters that have 2000 ATK or less and are run in multiples.

Right now your paper should look like this:

Flip Effect Monsters:
Mulitples?:
2000 ATK & Multiples?:


You Set 1 Chain Destruction and your Nobleman of Crossout. You then activate Exchange. Quickly you note he has 1 Magician of Faith and 2 Man-Eater Bug and a Jinzo. He gives you the Jinzo and you give him Chain Destruction.

At this point I'd have written down:

Flip Effect Monsters: MoF, MEB
Multiples: N, Y (2)
2000 ATK & Multiples?: MEB

You activate Monster Reborn and get back Cannon Soldier. You activate Call of the Haunted and get Emissary of the Afterlife. You Tribute Emissary and get its effect. Of course, your opponent has no legal monsters and gives you the deck to make sure there aren't.

QUICKLY, you find he has 1 more Magician of Faith, 1 more MEB, and 3 Needle Worms (we're jumping into the future to November when it's possible to have 3 Needle Worms without breaking the bank). He also has 3 Pyramid Turtles.

After looking through his deck and shuffling it, you write down:

Flip Effect Monsters: MoF, MEB
Multiples?: Y (3), Y (3)
2000 ATK & Multiples?: MoF (3, 1 ID 1 H), MEB (3, 2 ID), Pyr Tu (3)



Note how I abbreviated everything? You can't just leisurely write down the whole contents of the opponent's deck and hand. You could be called for illegal stalling. You'll have to be VERY quick about it, so it's best to use abbreviations you can quickly remember. Here "ID" means "In Deck" and "H" means "Hand."

Even this would border on taking too long because you would be slower going through the deck in order to note those cards. I say border because SOME people might be able to do it fast enough to not slow the game down but I don't know too many players like that. A good rule of thumb is that if the Head Judge is going to allow notes, it will be on the condition that it not slow the game down.

Personally when I'm head judging, the only time I allow notes to be taken is if someone is doing a tournament report and if that is happening I try to keep a floor judge nearby to make sure the 'reporter' is not taking advantage of the privilege.
Spot's Knight

 

[Blue-Eyes Black]

Even this would border on taking too long because you would be slower going through the deck in order to note those cards. I say border because SOME people might be able to do it fast enough to not slow the game down but I don't know too many players like that. A good rule of thumb is that if the Head Judge is going to allow notes, it will be on the condition that it not slow the game down.

Personally when I'm head judging, the only time I allow notes to be taken is if someone is doing a tournament report and if that is happening I try to keep a floor judge nearby to make sure the 'reporter' is not taking advantage of the privilege.
Spot's Knight

I understand where you're coming from, but with my method you would not be allowed to take notes WHILE searching through the deck. You look through it quickly and then using your memory write down QUICKLY anything of interest you saw.


I would not allow note-taking (aside from Life Points and how they were lost) simply because there would be too many allegations of someone taking too much time writing his notes.


What would I allow?

Player 1: 8000 (start), 7200 (Ookazi), 6200 (TF*), 3200 (DA* BEWD*), 0 (DA, TMB*)
Player 2: 8000 (start), 7700 (DA SS*), 7200 (TF)

*Abbreviations (in Order, top to bottom and left to right): Tremendous Fire; "Direct Attack by"; Blue-Eyes White Dragon; The Masked Beast; Sinister Serpent.


What wouldn't I allow? Anything else. If it's not used to keep track of Life Points, it's not allowed.

 

[Bigred Blues]

I would personally not allow note taking of your opponents cards, I would Allow Tourny Reports, but they couldnt interfere with the game and Final Countdown Turn Count.

Those are the only things I would allow outside LP count.

 

[RegnR8]

I write Tournament reports every week and if I were not allowed to take notes, I would not do it. I haven't had a problem with note taking in the past. There are times when I've been asked what I was doing and when I explained, no one had a problem with it. If I were not able to write notes, it would be next to impossible to remember all the nuances of a duel and it would be a rather bland report if it consisted of "I won the first duel and the second".

I have sort of established a "Yugioh Shorthand" where I can quickly jot down the play. I have also found the note taking to be very helpful on the rare occasion when there is a question of life points, or a situation arises where referring to the notes will resolve an issue or question about certain events. I have use the notes to establish the end time of Swords of Revealing Light, for example, when my opponent claimed it had another turn left. I was able to show in my notes the exact turn it was activated and the matter was resolved.

I also use pretty good judgement and common sense. If the duel is dragging on, I will stop writing notes because it may delay the match. Also, if my opponent is playing a lot of cards all at the same time, say with a fast Last Turn deck or Scientist FTK, I sometimes won't take notes because it delays there deck "flow" and I try to keep up the best I can.

Most of my opponents do not mind if I take notes as long as they know what I am doing. Some people, there will always be the cheaters among us, will take advantage of note taking as evidenced in an earlier post, and I would hate too think that a dishonest person would ruin my ability to take notes during a duel. It would be one aspect of Yugioh I enjoy that would be taken away from me, and I would not appreciate it.

RegnR8

 

[KnightCmdr]

Personally, If I find my opponent writing notes on the game play alone,
I will not say anything, however, if my opponent is copying down what
cards I have in play or what is in my deck then I will object and ask
that player to stop and ask for a ruling from the head judge. I would
love to see local tournaments have deck registration prior to starting
their tournaments as a deck check for legality of the decks.