Yugioh Tournaments.

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Digital Jedi said:
Which I've been hearing for years. My question is not what makes Yu-Gi-Oh! dead or dying. My question is what makes a game alive and kicking? Because based on thoses those "dead" definitions I keep hearing, there is no game alive and kicking outside of Magic, and there never has been.
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Well without the YGO anime, video games or manga, there be no game and the game could not survive otherwise. You take those away and you see how long that lasts. Duel Masters on the other hand did not need a anime to surive nor does it need the video games. In the manga, they were playing MTG until they later changed it to their own game. Does MTG need anything else? Nope. It is still here. It will have a TV ad on the rare full moon, but it really does not need any other mediums to keep it afloat. What is keeping YGO alive are the TCG tournies and the video games as well as the anime and manga. Take them away, the game will die. Look at the other anime based TCGs. But at least in their defense they were not based on a OCG in the anime itself.
 
Tiso said:
Well without the YGO anime, video games or manga, there be no game and the game could not survive otherwise. You take those away and you see how long that lasts. Duel Masters on the other hand did not need a anime to surive nor does it need the video games. In the manga, they were playing MTG until they later changed it to their own game. Does MTG need anything else? Nope. It is still here. It will have a TV ad on the rare full moon, but it really does not need any other mediums to keep it afloat. What is keeping YGO alive are the TCG tournies and the video games as well as the anime and manga. Take them away, the game will die. Look at the other anime based TCGs. But at least in their defense they were not based on a OCG in the anime itself.
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Hmmm- they took away the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon in the mid 80s, and D&D is not only going strong but it has the ability to weather the incredibly bad movie they made of it... Cartoons and cultural links may not actually help.
 
english chef said:
Hmmm- they took away the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon in the mid 80s, and D&D is not only going strong but it has the ability to weather the incredibly bad movie they made of it... Cartoons and cultural links may not actually help.
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But D&D was not created because of the cartoon.
 
Tiso said:
But D&D was not created because of the cartoon.
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Why would that have any bearing on the games success? Many succesful things where born out of the creation of an unsucessful thing. And vice versa. But that isn't any kind of positive indicator. It's just happenstance.
 
Digital Jedi said:
Why would that have any bearing on the games success? Many succesful things where born out of the creation of an unsucessful thing. And vice versa. But that isn't any kind of positive indicator. It's just happenstance.
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Because as I said, D&D was not created because of the 80's cartoon. The game was created in the 70's as a table top game and was highly successful which then spawned off in different mediums such as adventure books, TV, and movies, etc. Name some things, such as card games or board games that were born out of something else and are successful to this day? Not including Pokemon since that is around on name alone.

YGO needs the video games and the anime and the manga in order for the OCG/TCG to stay afloat. Take that away, YGO will indeed die. The only reason YGO is even played seriously in the TCG is for the tourney scene otherwise we see more diversity in Decks than the simple "Well I play my fun Deck outside of the tourney scene, which is my real Deck."
 
It's coincidence really. There's no reason to believe that the sole success of a TCG is dependant on the cartoon it spawned from, if it in fact did spawn from one. A good majority of Yu-Gi-Oh! players, don't even watch the cartoon or even know about the video games and never have. The game is dependant on support more then anything else. It's an "If you build it, they will come"-type situation for any TCG. From what I've seen, the corporations behind the game are responsible for the games success and continued success. When they fail to deliver for whatever reason, then that's when the game suffers. If Konami had turned its attention away form Yu-Gi-Oh! during it's heyday, even with a successful cartoon, a lack of support would have still killed it. As it stands, the games will keep going as long as there is a company adding fuel to the furnace. That fuel being game support.
 
That is cool and all, but that does not apply for YGO. Without the manga, there be no YGO OCG/TCG. It was only because of the fan support and the love of card games/table top games from the creator that allowed him to revist the Duel Monsters idea he had early in his manga. Without the manga, there be no anime. Without the anime and manga the OCG/TCG would not have had any lasting power. Without the OCG/TCG the video games would have no reason to be made.

The thing is, this was a game that was created solely with the purpose of being connected from where it came from in the first place. Unlike for example Yu Yu Hakusho, it was a anime with no ties to any type of card game scheme to it. How long was Yu Yu Hakusho going to last if it's anime was rarely seen on TV, was already finished on DVD and on TV, and was licensed by Score (horrible company)? I understand where you are coming from Digital, the game is not how you want it to be. It needs all those other things for it to continue.

If you noticed, starting from SOD I suppose they started using images of a card in the set instead of Yugi which has been on pretty much every other set to date, as well as the other characters that had their own Decks. The recent starters also have follow the trend of supporting itself outside of the anime by showing images of what is inside the Deck. However, that really is not going to last long when the sets today (not starters I mean) rely on the GX theme to fuel it with sales.
 
Tiso said:
That is cool and all, but that does not apply for YGO. Without the manga, there be no YGO OCG/TCG. It was only because of the fan support and the love of card games/table top games from the creator that allowed him to revist the Duel Monsters idea he had early in his manga. Without the manga, there be no anime. Without the anime and manga the OCG/TCG would not have had any lasting power. Without the OCG/TCG the video games would have no reason to be made.

The thing is, this was a game that was created solely with the purpose of being connected from where it came from in the first place. Unlike for example Yu Yu Hakusho, it was a anime with no ties to any type of card game scheme to it. How long was Yu Yu Hakusho going to last if it's anime was rarely seen on TV, was already finished on DVD and on TV, and was licensed by Score (horrible company)? I understand where you are coming from Digital, the game is not how you want it to be. It needs all those other things for it to continue.

If you noticed, starting from SOD I suppose they started using images of a card in the set instead of Yugi which has been on pretty much every other set to date, as well as the other characters that had their own Decks. The recent starters also have follow the trend of supporting itself outside of the anime by showing images of what is inside the Deck. However, that really is not going to last long when the sets today (not starters I mean) rely on the GX theme to fuel it with sales.
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What your describing is simply good marketing strategy. Of course the game will do better if the game is tied to a good advertising campaign and plan. Obviously, the game itself was borne out of a desire to see the anime become reality. What I'm saying is that we are passed that now. The game is a entity unto itself at this point. I don't believe it is any longer dependant on a cartoon to survive. Yu-Yu Hakusho (TCG) never had the level of popularity it needed to maintain a fan base like Yu-Gi. It never crossed the line form flash-in-the-pan new TCG to an established legendary card game, for whatever reasons. Yu-Gi-Oh! has.

What tying the game into the GX cartoon, and whatever else they decide, does is perpetuate growth and solidify longevity. But it's not a life support mechanism. Yu-Gi is quite strong enough to stand on it's own for a good length of time without a cartoon. I'm not saying it doesnt need to eat and breath. Your always going to need some kind marketing strategy to maintain your product. That' where the support comes in. But the cartoon in of itself, we can do with or without. The real meat and potatoes for a TCG of any kind to thrive is card and game support. Cartoons and Video Games, whether the were the progenitor of the TCG itself, are merely shiny finishes. In order for a game to survive, it needs to leave the nest and grow beyond that. I believe Yu-Gi is old enough to leave home now. Mom and Dad just won't let him leave.
 
It is not the fact that Yu Yu Hakusho was popular or not popular, it is the fact that Score sucks. It is a wonder that Dragon Ball Z has lasted so long after so many reboots and sets phased out of play and promo cards dropped and so on. YGO is trying to convince people that it does not need the anime to keep it around, but Konami is just not convinced of that themselves. They would not need to promote a set by saying "More GX favorite cards are in it" or have the title character appear on their newest video game of the series.

But the problem with YYH, DBZ, One Piece, Shaman King, Inuyasha, and so on is that they are not based on a comprehensive card game before they were created. They are based on a show, a book, a comic, etc. At least in YGO's case, the creator was a huge fan of those type of games like D&D and MTG and modelled the later part of his series after much fan support to it. You take away in the TCG the TV show and the merchandise (like toys) and you are left with just the card game. How long is that going to last when the "kiddies" are not able to see what they want to play on TV? Take away a reason to bother with tournies, such as the prizes being useable and good, and you would see a decrease in tourney play. Why bother going all out and spending money on travel and hotel just to get an award saying "You are a SJC champion. Here is a box of YGO cards."
 
Konami's support of the game is what will, in the end, make or break Yu-Gi-Oh! Tournament scenes are often of the primary sources of nutrition for a TCGs health and endurance, but Konami still views that aspect of it as something for little kids. If they put more into that aspect, like offering better prizes, and making spending a day at a tournament more productive, even if you dont place top 8, then it would stand a greater chance at outliving some of its competition. If Konami actually spent less money tying the game into cartoons, and more into making "premiere event" actual premiere events, then there would be a stronger fan base playing the game then there currently is. There would be less children, no doubt, but there would be stronger more devoted players.
 
But the problem is, this game is not a kid's only game. When the last time you seen little kids make it in the Top 8? When the last time you seen little kids seriously doing the tourney scene? It is teens and young adults. The people who stuck with the game and grew up with it.
 
Tiso said:
But the problem is, this game is not a kid's only game. When the last time you seen little kids make it in the Top 8? When the last time you seen little kids seriously doing the tourney scene? It is teens and young adults. The people who stuck with the game and grew up with it.
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When's the last time you saw the toruney scene spending hundreds of millions of dollars on e-hero cards?
 
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
When's the last time you saw the toruney scene spending hundreds of millions of dollars on e-hero cards?
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Who is talking about E-Hero's, let alone millions of dollars? Bad example dude.
 
Tiso said:
Who is talking about E-Hero's, let alone millions of dollars? Bad example dude.
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Konami knows what its doing Market wise (for the TCG). The kids ARE the target market. And they are the ones spending the money (1/3rd of the entire TCG market of north america belongs to yugioh)
 
Tiso said:
But the problem is, this game is not a kid's only game. When the last time you seen little kids make it in the Top 8? When the last time you seen little kids seriously doing the tourney scene? It is teens and young adults. The people who stuck with the game and grew up with it.
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This past December 18th, at the Maryland Regionals. He was from the Store I play at.

8 years old, almost won the whole thing out of 338 players registered.
 
masterwoo0 said:
This past December 18th, at the Maryland Regionals. He was from the Store I play at.

8 years old, almost won the whole thing out of 338 players registered.
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Ok. 1 instance out of how many years this game been out? Let alone how many of the Top 8 are these "little kids" that Konami is claiming are the target audience? That is cool that someone who is 8 years old almost won it, but then again that is pretty sad if a 8 year old was almost able to win in a serious competitive tourney.
 
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Konami knows what its doing Market wise (for the TCG). The kids ARE the target market. And they are the ones spending the money (1/3rd of the entire TCG market of north america belongs to yugioh)
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So you are telling me a little kid is going to work 9-5 in order to afford their YGO habit?
 
Tiso said:
Ok. 1 instance out of how many years this game been out? Let alone how many of the Top 8 are these "little kids" that Konami is claiming are the target audience? That is cool that someone who is 8 years old almost won it, but then again that is pretty sad if a 8 year old was almost able to win in a serious competitive tourney.
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Its not sad. Jeremy is that good. His only problem is, when he doesnt want to play anymore, he'll quit in the middle of a Tournament. Again, this is no different than the "astute" comment. You can't have it both ways Tiso. You're either with us, or against us when it comes to recognizing and respecting other peoples skills and talents.

Baltimore is the area that brought about Shane Scurry. These is more than enough Pro Players here. To lessen his achievement is to say that 336 people where garbage players, and if a 8 year old can make it past only 9 people to Top 8, and then come in 2nd place, that's a good thing. He isnt playing all 300+ players, only 12.
 
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Of course not, kids are skilled at mooching.
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Then they are not spending THEIR money, but their parent's money who will also from time to time buy them a pack or two. But given the fact that packs are expensive and this is a rich man's game, how likely is a kid going to get into the game at age 6-8 with serious aspirations to go to SJC and win a nice new laptop and meet Kevin Tewart? I just do not see parents dumping hundreds of dollars into a TCG for their little kid who is not even mature enough to own a PSP.
 
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