Zombyra the Dark vs Astral Barrier

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YaDoc

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This can up at our tournament last week. Little Tommy's Zombyra attacks Big Tim's Gemini Elf. BT activates Astral Barrier's effect making Zombyra's attack a direct one. BT tells LT his attack can not go through because Zombyra can't attack directly. LT calls for the judge and ask for a ruling? The judge reads the text of the cards in play and with the look of confidence in his eye tells LT that BT is correct because Astral Barrier's effect make the attack a direct attack and Zombyra can not attack directly. Little Tommy being a champion of sportsmanship and doing what his elders say accepts the ruling going on to loose a very close duel. I thought the judge made an incorrect ruling so after finishing my match I spoke with the judge in private expressing my concern. I related to him a ruling I rememberd concerning Zombyra and Dark Spirit of the Silent in which Zombyra could attack directly and told him I thought this situation was simiular. If I had been judging I would have ruled Zombyra's attack went thought....and LT would have won the duel. So please tell me who is correct in the above situation.

Thanks
 
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If the Dark Spirit of the Silent ruling is correct, then Zombyra can attack directly. Although, I'm not sure if it's actually an "only if... then..." situation.

Odds are, he can only not attack directly by himself, but he can attack directly if a card effect makes him. Just like a Solar Flare Dragon equipped with Ring of Magnetism can be attacked, even if there is another Pyro-Type monster on same side of the field.

My thoughts.
 
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Maruno said:
If the Dark Spirit of the Silent ruling is correct, then Zombyra can attack directly. Although, I'm not sure if it's actually an "only if... then..." situation.

Odds are, he can only not attack directly by himself, but he can attack directly if a card effect makes him. Just like a Solar Flare Dragon equipped with Ring of Magnetism can be attacked, even if there is another Pyro-Type monster on same side of the field.

My thoughts.
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As you said, Solar Flare Dragon with Ring of Magnetism can still be attacked with another Pyro-type monster and since Zombra's attack and effect condition was changed by Astral Barrier, the damage to life points should have gone through. Zombra didn't initially attack the opponent's life points as it's prohibited by it's card effect- Astral Barrier changed the battle and effect condition from damage to a monster to direct damage to life points.
 
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As far as I'm concerned there is only 1 of 2 ways the situation involving Zombyra the Dark and Astral Barrier can be ruled.

1. Rule the same as Dark Spirit of the Silent, and let Zombyra attack directly since the attack was changed by card effect, OR

2. Since Zombyra the Dark cannot attack directly, it is an illegal selection for Astral Barrier. See the ruling on Astral Barrier vs. Fusion monsters special summoned by Magical Scientist. I would not allow the controller of Astral Barrier to select Zombyra.

I agree the ruling rendered in your son's tournament was incorrect.

doc
 
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Id go with the Magical Scientist vs Astral Barrier ruling, since Dark Spirit of the Silent is just selecting a monster to attack, Astral Barrier is making a monster attack directly.

Though it might seem weird, the way that's stated it's quite a simple explanation, the way both cards are worded are distinct expressions.
 
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Somehow I have a feeling that, had the question been put to the judge's list comparing this situation to the Magical Scientist - summoned fusion monsters instead of comparing it to Dark Spirit of the Silent, we might have obtained a different answer ...

Can anyone find a logical reason for this to be ruled one way and not the other ( considering the alternatives ygo doc has posted )?

Thanks

Carlos
 
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I'm going to guess, but I think the difference is that Magicial Scientist puts a condition on the fusion monster, stopping it from attacking directly, while its only Zombyra's effect, that keeps him from attacking directly.

Oh, and there is this ruling on Magical Scientist as well :p - "If a Fusion Monster is Special Summoned with "Magical Scientist", and attacks, you cannot choose to make the attack a direct attack on your Life Points, because the effect of "Magical Scientist" prohibiting this is mandatory, but the effect of "Astral Barrier" is optional."
 
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Actually Zombyra's effect is also mandatory. The difference is that in one case there is an "outside" effect preventing the fusion monsters from attacking, whereas in the other case it's the monster's own effect that forbids it.

To be honest, I fail to see why this should make a difference, but perhaps you're right, who knows ? ( I don't have a better guess either ).

Thanks

Carlos
 
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Carlos, I'm not certain why its ruled one way or the other either, which is why I posted both options.

You are correct, both the Magical Scientist summoned Fusion monsters and Zombyra the Dark have a mandatory cannot attack directly restriction. However, I consider the effect on the Fusion monsters as a condition placed upon them at their summoning, not an effect. Remember, if Skill Drain is on the field, the Fusion monsters canNOT attack directly and must still return to the Fusion Deck at end of turn. If Skill Drain is out with Zombyra the Dark, Zombyra CAN attack directly!

doc
 
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Yep. Conditions cannot be negated (unless you look at Tenkabito Shien or such, but they just ignore it instead of negating it), but effects can be overruled. The effect of Astral Barrier will override the effect of Zombyra the Dark. As mentioned earlier, it's like Ring of Magnetism overriding the effect of a Solar Flare Dragon or similar monster.
 
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Maruno said:
Yep. Conditions cannot be negated (unless you look at Tenkabito Shien or such, but they just ignore it instead of negating it)
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Those are not conditions, those are effects, which is why they are only immune to Trap Effects while face-up on the field. If they were a condition, then they would be immune to trap effects while in the Hand, Deck, Graveyard and RFP as well.
 
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skey23 said:
Those are not conditions, those are effects, which is why they are only immune to Trap Effects while face-up on the field. If they were a condition, then they would be immune to trap effects while in the Hand, Deck, Graveyard and RFP as well.
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I was referring to Tenkabito Shien versus Return from the Different Dimension. I probably should have mentioned that explicitly. RftDD creates a condition, but Tenkabito Shien ignores it because of its effect.
 
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Based off the rulings for "Wildheart" and subsequently "Tenkabito Shien", "Return" does not create any kind of condition. It has a lingering effect that resolves during the End Phase of the turn. This is why they are not affected.
 
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