Ancient Gear Engineer

[Dr Sin]

Interesting to see LJM effect's in discussion again.
I saw in other thread people saying its effect would work even if he is attacked by MS LV 2, Drillroid etc

I searched for more information, and I found in the upperdeck official site:

"""Legendary Jujitsu Master


If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed, removed from play, or flipped face-down by the effect of the monster he battles with, "Legendary Jujitsu Master"'s effect is still applied and the monster is returned to the top of the Deck.

If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is changed to a Fiend-Type or a Zombie-Type by "DNA Surgery" and is attacked by "Getsu Fuhma", "Getsu Fuhma"'s effect is Step 1 of a chain because the turn player is Step 1, and "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is Step 2. "Legendary Jujitsu Master" resolves first and "Getsu Fuhma" is sent back to the top of the Deck, then "Getsu Fuhma"'s effect resolves and "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed.

If you have "Destruction Punch"'s effect, and your opponent attacks your "Legendary Jujitsu Master", you resolve the 2 effects in a chain with the controller (the defending player) choosing the order."""

So, the official source tell us its effect work no matter who battled it.
Okay, I know it doesn't say much... but makes you think.

 

[John Danker]

I hate to revive old threads but it seemed a smarter idea in this case as the previous posts to this thread might help some to catch up to the subject matter at hand.

Perhaps what I'm about to discuss already has been on another older thread, this was the most recent one I could find on Legendary Jujitsu Master....anyway...

Someone asked me about Ancient Gear Engineer and if it's effect to destroy a S/T card at the end of the damage step would still work if Ancient Gear Engineer was destroyed in battle.

The first thing I did was go to Kevin's damage step chart. Now, while there may be a couple of minor holes in that very old (and unofficial) document it's really the best thing we have at this time concerning the damage step. According to it, Legendary Jujitsu Master, if destroyed in battle, would be sent to the graveyard before it's effect activates. When you read the rulings for Legendary Jujitsu Master though it states...

If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed, removed from play, or flipped face-down by the effect of the monster he battles with, "Legendary Jujitsu Master"'s effect is still applied and the monster is returned to the top of the Deck.

When I look at the effect text of Ancient Gear Engineer I see a lot of similarities. Both monster effects trigger at points before their effect resolves (one by being attacked in def. postion and the other by attacking) and both monster effects resolve at the end of the damage step.

I'm assuming then it's safe to apply the same ruling thought pattern to Ancient Gear Engineer as it is with Legendary Jujitsu Master.

You'll have to excuse me for rambling on with this one, just never really have thought about all this before.....with a continuous effect monster though, once it's considered destroyed it no longer has an effect. So why is it that a triggered effect like Legendary Jujitsu Master still has an effect after it's considered destroyed?

Another one of my tangets on a thread folks, hope you don't mind.....when I'm learning something I tend to do this <shrug>

 

[skey23]

I think the biggest 'key' factors to look at when trying to figure out if a card needs to be on the field for it's effect to go off are:

1. Does it have to compare any of it's own stats to complete its effect?

2. Does it have to send something to the Graveyard? (this one is specifically for those effects during the Damage Step)

I'm sure there are plenty more, but I can't think of them right now.

Basically, if it doesn't fall into either of these, then it's a pretty safe bet the card doesn't need to remain on the field for it's effect to resolve correctly.


Just my thoughts...

 

[John Danker]

That seems to work for monsters with trigger effects, obviously it doesn't work for monsters with continuous effects though.

Thanks for your input. This seems like a topic that I haven't really seen a template for as of yet.

 

[Martok]

When I look at the effect text of Ancient Gear Engineer I see a lot of similarities. Both monster effects trigger at points before their effect resolves (one by being attacked in def. postion and the other by attacking) and both monster effects resolve at the end of the damage step.

There's still a (sometimes important) difference: Ancient Gear Engineer only has to "attack" (indicating SubStep 1, with Drillroid being the glorious exception), while LJM needs to "battle" (indicating SubStep 3). In this case this doesn't make a difference for Ancient Gear Engineer, since it's already reached SubStep 4 if it dies by battle.

The monster only has to be face-up on the field when the condition for its effect is being fulfilled. Once this has been accomplished, the monster can die and its effect will still activate (during SubStep 6 in these cases) and resolve (unless negated).
Of course, a monster equipped with, say, Cyclone Blade would HAVE to reach SubStep 6 for the effect of Cyclone Blade to activate. But that's only because it's not the effect of the monster, but the effect of the Equip Spell Card.

 

[John Danker]

Since when Ancient Gear Engineer attacks your opponent cannot activate any Spell or Trap Cards until the end of the Damage Step, it's unlikely that it woudn't make it to damage step anyway....at least there isn't any way I can think of off the top of my head....could be a multi-trigger monster on the field with some effect I suppose....tell me if you think of one that would apply.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

entering the damage step and entering damage calculation are completly different. Drillroid clearly enters the the damage step since monsters it attacks are fliped. Simon is refering to entering damage calculation.

 

[Martok]

Since when Ancient Gear Engineer attacks your opponent cannot activate any Spell or Trap Cards until the end of the Damage Step, it's unlikely that it woudn't make it to damage step anyway....at least there isn't any way I can think of off the top of my head....could be a multi-trigger monster on the field with some effect I suppose....tell me if you think of one that would apply.

Hmmm... the opponent could activate the effect of an already face-up Skull Lair during the Battle Step, targeting the AGE.

 

[mikoal]

"Ok, but the ruling I quoted, and others from SOI for that matter, clearly state that since Damage Calculation is not conducted, the monster did not 'battle'. How can that not be any clearererer? It has nothing to do with the Damage Step, only Damage Calculation.
"


so dirllroid enters battle phase > damage step but not damage calc....

since it did not enter damaage calculation drillroid did not enter battle with LJM??

so are you guys saying that a flip effect monster can be "forced flip",get its effect and be destryoed all without entering "battle".

Can anyone think of anyway that a flip effect monster's effect to occur via *forced flip other than through battle? (Maybe the term "battle" is misused here?)

*Just to refresh my memories, what can prevent a forced flipped effect monster's effect? i cannot think of any, when u manual flip them, you can use horn of heaven or solemn etc....


or maybe that it did enter battle with it, but the fact that a step in the damage step is missing, or skipped (daamge calculation) that it is considered as incomplete?? im confused

 

[skey23]

"Ok, but the ruling I quoted, and others from SOI for that matter, clearly state that since Damage Calculation is not conducted, the monster did not 'battle'. How can that not be any clearererer? It has nothing to do with the Damage Step, only Damage Calculation.
"

Ok, no offense here, but I have no idea what you're talking about...lol. Nobody is questioning anything in this thread. John is just trying to compare "Legendary Jujitsu Master" with "Ancient Gear Engineer"...lol.

[edit]Wait, you quoted me from an earlier post...lol. And w/o using the quote feature or saying that you quoted anybody. That's not very nice.

so dirllroid enters battle phase > damage step but not damage calc....

since it did not enter damaage calculation drillroid did not enter battle with LJM??

That is correct. That's why the effect of "Legendary Jujitsu Master" will not activate.

so are you guys saying that a flip effect monster can be "forced flip",get its effect and be destryoed all without entering "battle".

Absolutely, that's what "Drillroid" does....lol.

Can anyone think of anyway that a flip effect monster's effect to occur via *forced flip other than through battle? (Maybe the term "battle" is misused here?)

Um..."Desert Sunlight", "Swords of Revealing Light", "Acid Trap Hole".....

*Just to refresh my memories, what can prevent a forced flipped effect monster's effect? i cannot think of any, when u manual flip them, you can use horn of heaven or solemn etc....

"Royal Command" and "Skill Drain" are 2 that immediately come to mind.


Hope this helps!

 

[mikoal]

Ok, no offense here, but I have no idea what you're talking about...lol. Nobody is questioning anything in this thread. John is just trying to compare "Legendary Jujitsu Master" with "Ancient Gear Engineer"...lol.




I thought this thread was about whether or not LJM effect happens or not when drillroid atks it???

the AGengineer was afterwards.........










[edit]Wait, you quoted me from an earlier post...lol. And w/o using the quote feature or saying that you quoted anybody. That's not very nice.



sorry i dont quote ppl much, and i think this might be the second time i qtuoted someone, and since ur post was on the first page, i just copy and pasted it........i didnt know that was a rude thing to do, my apologies if it is.....
i was thinkiung of manually typing ur name in and putting

Simon Key
" ............."

but that woulda looked pretty gay.......


i mean it always looks so nice when quoted, but when im typing this up, i dont enojoy the /quote stuff around....but once again i will do the quote feature, or try.............hmmm ill just copy this response and try to quote u and paste it in




That is correct. That's why the effect of "Legendary Jujitsu Master" will not activate.
Absolutely, that's what "Drillroid" does....lol.
Um..."Desert Sunlight", "Swords of Revealing Light", "Acid Trap Hole".....
"Royal Command" and "Skill Drain" are 2 that immediately come to mind.


Hope this helps!

how can i say this??
i guess i forgot to say, force flip without the help of another card, such as swords, or desert sunlight. but only by another monster.......

On a side note, what happens with u have a cyber jar face down and a ur opponent plays swords of reavelaing light and u didnt want it to activate so u chain compulsary evac device? does it activate??


as for force flip i meant a card that can respond to a force flip, and since i forgot to mention withouth the help of another card, usually a forceflip will be done by battle......

so when the opp finds out that the fd monster was a flip effect mosnter, at that point no cards can prevent the flip effect from going off........ i mean force flip in that sense.....not through the means of swords or desert sunlight.........

another side note......
can the NTP respond to the flip summoning of a flip effect monster with royal command



EDIT:LOL now u knwo why i didnt quote you......i messed it up :S


EDIT 2?? : i guess my purpose of this post is, the force flip im referring to i thought can only occur during a battle, but since drillroid doesnt "battle" and that force flip stil occurs i jsut thought that was interesting

 

[skey23]

LOL!...It's ok mikoal, it took me a bunch of times to get the hang of quoting...lol. You 'almost' got it...lol....

 

[John Danker]

I guess one other point is that Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect does not target while Anicent Gear Engineer's effect does, however, it would appear from the effect text of Ancient Gear Engineer that it's effect of destroying one S/T card triggers and targets when it attacks...is that the way you're seeing it? So it wouldn't need to be face up on the field when it resolves?

Sorry guys, I'm having trouble wraping my mind around this card for some reason!

 

[Martok]

I guess one other point is that Legendary Jujitsu Master's effect does not target while Anicent Gear Engineer's effect does, however, it would appear from the effect text of Ancient Gear Engineer that it's effect of destroying one S/T card triggers and targets when it attacks...is that the way you're seeing it? So it wouldn't need to be face up on the field when it resolves?

Sorry guys, I'm having trouble wraping my mind around this card for some reason!

The effect doesn't target at the moment it "triggers".
The target(s) for a (non-continuous) targeting effect are always chosen at activation, which happens during SubStep 6 in this case.

This is similar to the Flip Effect of Penguin Soldier (that is flipped by an attack): It "triggers" when the monster is flipped face-up, but the targets are not chosen until SubStep 5.

 

[Fury]

Is the monster destroyed by Drillroid immediately sent to the grave or only later, at the same time it would normally?

So if it attacks MoF, will the effect of MoF activate and resolve before it is sent to the grave or afterwards?

 

[Martok]

Is the monster destroyed by Drillroid immediately sent to the grave or only later, at the same time it would normally?

So if it attacks MoF, will the effect of MoF activate and resolve before it is sent to the grave or afterwards?

The effect of Drillroid destroys MoF during SubStep 2, sending it to the graveyard.
Gameplay then proceeds to SubStep 5 (since Damage Calculation is skipped and Damage Application doesn't happen either), where the effect of MoF starts a chain (and Skill Drain could not negate it, since MoF is no longer on the field).

 

[John Danker]

The effect doesn't target at the moment it "triggers".
The target(s) for a (non-continuous) targeting effect are always chosen at activation, which happens during SubStep 6 in this case.

This is similar to the Flip Effect of Penguin Soldier (that is flipped by an attack): It "triggers" when the monster is flipped face-up, but the targets are not chosen until SubStep 5.

I'm not convinced it is like the scenario with Penguin Soldier you described. Ancient Gear Engineer's effect doesn't "trigger" during the damage step....the "When" part of the effect text is very specific, it states "When this monster attacks...." In other words, when it declares an attack. Penguin Soldier's effect can't activate when it's flipped face up because of an attack because it's in the middle of damage step, Ancient Gear Engineer's effect doesn't have that restriction.

Again, I'm not saying I'm right, simply trying to figure this card out as it seems to not fit any template that I'm aware of, everyone's help is appreciated.

 

[Fury]

Thanks.

In the case of Engineer I also need some clarification.

When an effect triggers it will activate regardless what happens to the card in the meantime. There can be some time between triggering and activation because an effect can trigger at any time but cant activate at any time. E.g. they have to wait for the current chain to resolve and start a new one with their activation. Or during battle flip effects have to wait with their activation until after damage calculation.

The questions are where and when the effect of AGE activates. It seen like an on field effect, so AGE needs to be face-up on the field when it triggers. But I cant answer the "when" that easily. If it triggers when it declares the attack, then why doesnt it activate/starts a chain immediately. There is nothing that would force the delay. Maybe the "when this card attacks" is just flavour text here, "so it sounds better".(wrong, read the edit) If that's the case it would trigger at the end of the damage step instead, and if it would be destroyed by battle then it would be already in the grave which means its effect wouldnt trigger.

If you think there is a forced delay, could you explain why?

EDIT: Or more precisedly, the "when this card attacks" is not the indication of the triggering of its effect only the condition for it. So if it is attacked, its effect wont work. I think it still only triggers at the end of the damage step.

 

[John Danker]

Can I explain why I think there might be a forced delay...no...but I couldn't tell you why numerous cards do what they do either, some just break the mold in Yugioh as you know (as evidenced by Archfiends, Last Turn, and numerous other cards)

Glad to see I'm not the only one having doubts on this one though <laffin> Thanks for the company.

 

[masterwoo0]

Thanks.

In the case of Engineer I also need some clarification.

When an effect triggers it will activate regardless what happens to the card in the meantime. There can be some time between triggering and activation because an effect can trigger at any time but cant activate at any time. E.g. they have to wait for the current chain to resolve and start a new one with their activation. Or during battle flip effects have to wait with their activation until after damage calculation.

The questions are where and when the effect of AGE activates. It seen like an on field effect, so AGE needs to be face-up on the field when it triggers. But I cant answer the "when" that easily. If it triggers when it declares the attack, then why doesnt it activate/starts a chain immediately. There is nothing that would force the delay. Maybe the "when this card attacks" is just flavour text here, "so it sounds better".(wrong, read the edit) If that's the case it would trigger at the end of the damage step instead, and if it would be destroyed by battle then it would be already in the grave which means its effect wouldnt trigger.

If you think there is a forced delay, could you explain why?

EDIT: Or more precisedly, the "when this card attacks" is not the indication of the triggering of its effect only the condition for it. So if it is attacked, its effect wont work. I think it still only triggers at the end of the damage step.

Considering the fact that your opponent can't activate the effect of a Quick-Play or Trap Card, they have no option to chain anything "to" his effect. The only person that can still activate Spell/Trap Cards is the controller.

Anyway, the effect should activate anytime Ancient Gear Engineer "attacks" and his attack is not negated or otherwise prevented from reaching the Damage Step, which to me, indicates that it is a Triggered Effect that resolves during the end of the Damage Step, which is similar to Ryu Kokki attacking a Warrior-type Monster.

Also, I don't know how the "When this card attacks..." got inserted into Ancient Gear Engineer's Effect Text, but it isnt a "When", it's a "If", and that makes a difference, because a "When" statement would make his effect automatically Trigger at the Declaration of the Attack (in the Battle Step), while the "If" statement means that he must complete a attack, whether damage is done or not.

To me, the "When" is contingent upon the "if".