Ancient Gear Engineer

[Dr Sin]

Interesting to see LJM effect's in discussion again.
I saw in other thread people saying its effect would work even if he is attacked by MS LV 2, Drillroid etc

I searched for more information, and I found in the upperdeck official site:

"""Legendary Jujitsu Master


If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed, removed from play, or flipped face-down by the effect of the monster he battles with, "Legendary Jujitsu Master"'s effect is still applied and the monster is returned to the top of the Deck.

If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is changed to a Fiend-Type or a Zombie-Type by "DNA Surgery" and is attacked by "Getsu Fuhma", "Getsu Fuhma"'s effect is Step 1 of a chain because the turn player is Step 1, and "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is Step 2. "Legendary Jujitsu Master" resolves first and "Getsu Fuhma" is sent back to the top of the Deck, then "Getsu Fuhma"'s effect resolves and "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed.

If you have "Destruction Punch"'s effect, and your opponent attacks your "Legendary Jujitsu Master", you resolve the 2 effects in a chain with the controller (the defending player) choosing the order."""

So, the official source tell us its effect work no matter who battled it.
Okay, I know it doesn't say much... but makes you think.

 

[John Danker]

That's the way I'm currently seeing it masterwoo0, however, when is the card to be destroyed targeted? If it's when the card attacks then I certainly see it working this way, however, if it targets at the end of the damage step then there is a problem of course because the monster is already in the graveyard.

 

[masterwoo0]

That's the way I'm currently seeing it masterwoo0, however, when is the card to be destroyed targeted? If it's when the card attacks then I certainly see it working this way, however, if it targets at the end of the damage step then there is a problem of course because the monster is already in the graveyard.

Well, if Mobius the Frost Monarch can destroy up to 2 Spell or Traps after being removed from play, why can't Ancient Gear Engineer then "target" a Spell/Trap after being destroyed and sent to the Graveyard before the End of the Damage Step?

Both of their Effects Trigger based upon a requirement. Since Mobius clearly doesnt have to remain on the field to resolve his effect, why then would AGE?

 

[Martok]

I'm not convinced it is like the scenario with Penguin Soldier you described. Ancient Gear Engineer's effect doesn't "trigger" during the damage step....the "When" part of the effect text is very specific, it states "When this monster attacks...." In other words, when it declares an attack.

It's better not to confuse "attacking" and "declaring an attack".
Example:
"When this card declares an attack,..." (Gravekeepers Assailant), this effect activates during the Battle Step.
"When this monster attacks..." (Sasuke Samurai), this effect activates during the Damage Step.

It doesn't have to make a difference, but it can.

In the case of AGE, its effect clearly activates during the Damage Step, so the Damage Step must be reached.

The questions are where and when the effect of AGE activates.

It activates during SubStep 6, it's in the card text.

While "triggering" is a vague term, "activating" and "resolving" aren't. Activation and Resolve must happen during the same SubStep.

That's the way I'm currently seeing it masterwoo0, however, when is the card to be destroyed targeted? If it's when the card attacks then I certainly see it working this way, however, if it targets at the end of the damage step then there is a problem of course because the monster is already in the graveyard.

Why should this be a problem?

 

[John Danker]

and on the reverse side of that Fairy Box...

Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks, toss a coin and call Heads or Tails. If you call it right, the attacking monster's ATK becomes 0 only during the Battle Phase.

Each time a monster attacks is referring to the attack declaration. The effect though is only applied during the Battle Phase. Not only does the activation of the effect happen in seperate step than applying the effect...it happens in a different phase.

I realize we're not exactly talking apples and apples here....but there is enough room for doubt to question when AGE targets.

As for why it would be a problem if AEG targeted when it's in the graveyard? Do you know of any other cards that can name their target from the graveyard?

In my mind there is resonable doubt enough that I've submited the question to the judge's list, hopefully, we'll see a reply in a resonable amount of time.

 

[Cropz]

and on the reverse side of that Fairy Box...

Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks, toss a coin and call Heads or Tails. If you call it right, the attacking monster's ATK becomes 0 only during the Battle Phase.

Each time a monster attacks is referring to the attack declaration. The effect though is only applied during the Battle Phase. Not only does the activation of the effect happen in seperate step than applying the effect...it happens in a different phase.

I realize we're not exactly talking apples and apples here....but there is enough room for doubt to question when AGE targets.

As for why it would be a problem if AEG targeted when it's in the graveyard? Do you know of any other cards that can name their target from the graveyard?

In my mind there is resonable doubt enough that I've submited the question to the judge's list, hopefully, we'll see a reply in a resonable amount of time.

There's one big different between 'Mobius the Frost Monarch' and 'Ancient Gear Engineer' (which was your previous inquirement): 'Mobius the Frost Monarch''s effect activates once it's sucessfully summoned, and the targets are chosen then, even if cards like 'Bottomless Trap Hole' are chained to it, the effect was already activated, and removing the source from the field won't negate the effect.
'Ancient Gear Engineer''s effect only activates at the end of the damage step, and it's there that it selects the target to be destroyed, not when it declares the attack (can't be done if the monster is not there to begin with).
I do, however, have a theory on why 'Legendary Jujitsu Master' would have a different ruling from, say, 'Ancient Gear Engineer' or 'Hydrogeddon': you'll notice that all monsters with "when this card battles... at the end of the damage step... do something" timing will STILL get their effect even if they are destroyed by that battle ('Getsu Fuhma', 'Hyper Hammerhead', 'Chainsaw Insect', etc), while cards that activate at the end of the damage step, but do NOT mention "battle", do NOT activate their effect if they don't survive the battle (it's the case of 'Ancient Gear Engineer', 'Rallis the Star Bird', 'Hydrogeddon', and all other monsters that need to send monsters to the graveyard).
This could lead one to believe that monsters with "battle" requirements will "flag" for their effects when the battle happens, and then activate and resolve during the Damage Step, regardless of the battle's outcome.
Just my two cents.

 

[masterwoo0]

There's one big different between 'Mobius the Frost Monarch' and 'Ancient Gear Engineer' (which was your previous inquirement): 'Mobius the Frost Monarch''s effect activates once it's sucessfully summoned, and the targets are chosen then, even if cards like 'Bottomless Trap Hole' are chained to it, the effect was already activated, and removing the source from the field won't negate the effect.
'Ancient Gear Engineer''s effect only activates at the end of the damage step, and it's there that it selects the target to be destroyed, not when it declares the attack (can't be done if the monster is not there to begin with).
I do, however, have a theory on why 'Legendary Jujitsu Master' would have a different ruling from, say, 'Ancient Gear Engineer' or 'Hydrogeddon': you'll notice that all monsters with "when this card battles... at the end of the damage step... do something" timing will STILL get their effect even if they are destroyed by that battle ('Getsu Fuhma', 'Hyper Hammerhead', 'Chainsaw Insect', etc), while cards that activate at the end of the damage step, but do NOT mention "battle", do NOT activate their effect if they don't survive the battle (it's the case of 'Ancient Gear Engineer', 'Rallis the Star Bird', 'Hydrogeddon', and all other monsters that need to send monsters to the graveyard).
This could lead one to believe that monsters with "battle" requirements will "flag" for their effects when the battle happens, and then activate and resolve during the Damage Step, regardless of the battle's outcome.
Just my two cents.

Again, this isnt a "When this card Attacks..." effect. He can't even get that far "If he doesnt have a successful attack". You can't have a "When" if you never have a "If", and the "When" is only expanding on the fact that a successful attack was made.


If this was a note left for a individual who needed to pick up some Groceries, but wasnt sure where the store was (realizing the syntax is bad, but so is Engineer's card text)

"If you drive to the Grocery Store, you will have driven 10 Miles."

"When you have driven 10 miles, you will have reached the Grocery Store Parking Lot"

Clearly, if I don't go anywhere, I can't even get to the Parking Lot, so I can't have one without the other.

 

[Martok]

and on the reverse side of that Fairy Box...

Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks, toss a coin and call Heads or Tails. If you call it right, the attacking monster's ATK becomes 0 only during the Battle Phase.

Each time a monster attacks is referring to the attack declaration. The effect though is only applied during the Battle Phase. Not only does the activation of the effect happen in seperate step than applying the effect...it happens in a different phase.

First, I hope you see that the effect of Fairy Box doesn't even get close to "if this card attacks". Also, I never wrote that "attack" yould have to mean the Damage Step. The effect of AGE clearly says "at the end of the Damage Step" while the effect of Fairy Box activates and resolves during the Battle Step.

Second, your explanation of the effect of Fairy Box is wrong. The ATK reduction is applied immediately. It's not limited to Damage Calculation. It doesn't "happen" during another phase, at least not more than the effect of, say, Mind Control.

As for why it would be a problem if AEG targeted when it's in the graveyard? Do you know of any other cards that can name their target from the graveyard?

The turn player summons a monster, then he activates Torrential Tribute and chains Desert Sunlight, flipping his previously face-down MoF face-up. All monsters on the field are destroyed by TT. The effect of MoF then starts a new chain (note that the effect stays on the field). The target is selected while MoF is in the graveyard.

The turn player normal summons Dream Clown and passes priority. The opponent activates Trap Hole, the turn player chains Zero Gravity, changing Dream Clown to Defense Position. Dream Clown is then destroyed by TH. Its effect starts a new chain. The target is selected while Dream Clown is in the graveyard.

 

[Cropz]

Again, this isnt a "When this card Attacks..." effect. He can't even get that far "If he doesnt have a successful attack". You can't have a "When" if you never have a "If", and the "When" is only expanding on the fact that a successful attack was made.


If this was a note left for a individual who needed to pick up some Groceries, but wasnt sure where the store was (realizing the syntax is bad, but so is Engineer's card text)

"If you drive to the Grocery Store, you will have driven 10 Miles."

"When you have driven 10 miles, you will have reached the Grocery Store Parking Lot"

Clearly, if I don't go anywhere, I can't even get to the Parking Lot, so I can't have one without the other.

I'm not saying it IS, quite the contrary, I do agree with you on this point.

 

[John Danker]

First, I hope you see that the effect of Fairy Box doesn't even get close to "if this card attacks".

The text I was referring to with Fairy Box is the highlighted below, that text is stating that when an attack declaration is made, not when when we enter the damage step.

Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks, toss a coin and call Heads or Tails. If you call it right, the attacking monster's ATK becomes 0 only during the Battle Phase. Pay 500 Life Points during each of your Standby Phases. If you do not, this card is destroyed.

Also, I never wrote that "attack" yould have to mean the Damage Step. The effect of AGE clearly says "at the end of the Damage Step" while the effect of Fairy Box activates and resolves during the Battle Step."

I don't think there is anything CLEAR about the card text of AGE's text at all. If it were clear we wouldn't be having this conversation.

When this card attacks, destroy 1 Spell or Trap Card on your opponent's side of the field at the end of the Damage Step.

Those two bolded statements don't seem to be clear at all, they seem to countradict one another to me.

As far as when Fairy Box's effect activates and resolves....it's quite possible you're right, it's possible that the coin flip being correct sets up a condition for the effect to activate in the damage step, quite honestly I'm unclear on the mechanics breakdown of Fairy Box in this way, it's also possible that the effect activates in one step and resolves in another step.

Second, your explanation of the effect of Fairy Box is wrong. The ATK reduction is applied immediately. It's not limited to Damage Calculation. It doesn't "happen" during another phase, at least not more than the effect of, say, Mind Control.

No, the atk doesn't become 0 immediately, in your own words "the card clearly states...." as highlighted in the card text below.

Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks, toss a coin and call Heads or Tails. If you call it right, the attacking monster's ATK becomes 0 only during the Battle Phase. Pay 500 Life Points during each of your Standby Phases. If you do not, this card is destroyed.

The turn player summons a monster, then he activates Torrential Tribute and chains Desert Sunlight, flipping his previously face-down MoF face-up. All monsters on the field are destroyed by TT. The effect of MoF then starts a new chain (note that the effect stays on the field). The target is selected while MoF is in the graveyard.

Absolutely a valid point and thanks for making it. There are most certainly times when my mind forgets the obvious!

Incidently, I'm not trying to create an argument here, I'm actually trying to learn something not only about Ancient Gear Engineer but it's templating and cards that may be similar to it....so please, don't anyone take any of my posts as personal attacks.....they're just discussion and different possibilities.

 

[skey23]

I did a search in RONIN for all monsters with the text 'at the end of the damage step'. 18 monsters showed up, all with Triggered Effects.

Of those 18 monsters, the ONLY ones that needed to remain on the field for their effect to successfully resolve were the ones that involved doing something to themselves. ("Submarineroid", "Spear Dragon", "Rallis the Star Bird", etc...)

All of the other monsters that had rulings regarding this issue all stated the monster would still get it's effect even if that monster was removed from the field before the end of the Damage Step.

I don't see any reason to believe why "Ancient Gear Engineer" would NOT be able to destroy a Spell/Trap at the end of the Damage Step even if it were somehow removed from the field before then.

 

[John Danker]

Thanks for the research skey, say, could you name those 18 monsters and seperate them out into the ones that do something to themselves and those that don't? Might help me to classify them in my own mind and perhaps of others.

So really, it would appear that no matter if the S/T card to be destroyed is targeted at the point of attack or at the end of the battle phase it would be destroyed judging from other monster effects that include "...at the end of the battle phase." This is why I originally brought it up in the Legendary Jujitsu Master thread as I saw it as similar.

 

[skey23]

Here are the 18, separated...

Self affecting:
B.E.S. Covered Core
B.E.S. Crystal Core
B.E.S. Tetran
Big Core
Big Shield Gardna
Rallis the Star Bird
Spear Dragon
Submarineroid

Others:
Ancient Gear Engineer
Chainsaw Insect*
Elemental Hero Neo Bubbleman
Getsu Fuhma*
Hyper Hammerhead*
Legendary Jujitsu Master*
Prickle Fairy
Ryu Kokki*
Thousand Needles
Two Thousand Needles

* denotes the monsters with specific rulings that address the issue being discussed.

 

[Martok]

As far as when Fairy Box's effect activates and resolves....it's quite possible you're right, it's possible that the coin flip being correct sets up a condition for the effect to activate in the damage step, quite honestly I'm unclear on the mechanics breakdown of Fairy Box in this way, it's also possible that the effect activates in one step and resolves in another step.



No, the atk doesn't become 0 immediately, in your own words "the card clearly states...." as highlighted in the card text below.

Each time a monster on your opponent's side of the field attacks, toss a coin and call Heads or Tails. If you call it right, the attacking monster's ATK becomes 0 only during the Battle Phase. Pay 500 Life Points during each of your Standby Phases. If you do not, this card is destroyed.

Are you aware that the coin toss for Fairy Box happens during the Battle Step which is part of the Battle Phase that you bolded? And that "during the Battle Phase" does not mean the same as "during Damage Calculation"?
If yes, then I wonder how you got the idea that the effect couldn't be applied immediately.

 

[John Danker]

Yes I'm quite aware of the points you've mentioned. I'm not exactly a rookie when it comes to Yugioh rules and mechanics <soft smile> However, what I do from time to time is tend misread something! For some reason I didn't see "ATK becomes 0 only during the Battle Phase"....I saw, "ATK becomes 0 only during the damage step" in other words I assumed without checking the text carefully, it was a brain fart on my part and I thank you for pointing it out.

 

[John Danker]

I just recieved word back from Curtis that the question of weather AGE needs to be face up on the field at the end of the damage step has been submitted to Konami and they're awaiting response....so it's not just us who has doubts it would seem.

 

[skey23]

Joy...that'll take a couple of months at least....

 

[mikoal]

can someone explain to me why they think thay AGE must remain facxe up??

if not that, then can someone explain to me why it doesnt need to remain face up?


also what does it mean by "When this card attacks, ..."
does it mean it has declared atk? does that mean mirror force would work? cuz it hasnt atked yet??

also why is it wrong to have the trigger effect triggering at "When this card attacks, " then have the effect activate at end of damage step


sorry if im asking stupid questions, i just want to understand the scenario more...

 

[masterwoo0]

can someone explain to me why they think thay AGE must remain facxe up??

if not that, then can someone explain to me why it doesnt need to remain face up?


also what does it mean by "When this card attacks, ..."
does it mean it has declared atk? does that mean mirror force would work? cuz it hasnt atked yet??

also why is it wrong to have the trigger effect triggering at "When this card attacks, " then have the effect activate at end of damage step


sorry if im asking stupid questions, i just want to understand the scenario more...

Read his effect. "When this card Attacks, your opponent cannot activate Spell or Traps in the Battle Phase..."

That means that if you declare an attack with any other monster first, your opponent can still activate Spell or Trap Cards that don't Target Ancient Gear Engineer, like Mirror Force.

 

[mikoal]

Read his effect. "When this card Attacks, your opponent cannot activate Spell or Traps in the Battle Phase..."

That means that if you declare an attack with any other monster first, your opponent can still activate Spell or Trap Cards that don't Target Ancient Gear Engineer, like Mirror Force.

thanks

just making sure

"also what does it mean by "When this card attacks, ..."
does it mean it has declared atk? does that mean Mirror Force would work? cuz it hasnt atked yet??"

 

[masterwoo0]

thanks

just making sure

"also what does it mean by "When this card attacks, ..."
does it mean it has declared atk? does that mean Mirror Force would work? cuz it hasnt atked yet??"

As I stated earlier in this thread, "When this card attacks..." can only happen "If this card attacks...", which means that it has already successfully attacked a monster.

So, basically, when the controller declares an attack, there are only so many cards that can negate an attack. Negate Attack wont work against him, because he can't be Targeted by a Trap Card. You can't activate Mirror Force because that would be activating the effect in the Battle Phase, which you can't do (until the end of the Damage Step).