Ancient Gear Engineer

D

Dr Sin

New Member
Interesting to see LJM effect's in discussion again.
I saw in other thread people saying its effect would work even if he is attacked by MS LV 2, Drillroid etc

I searched for more information, and I found in the upperdeck official site:

"""Legendary Jujitsu Master


If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed, removed from play, or flipped face-down by the effect of the monster he battles with, "Legendary Jujitsu Master"'s effect is still applied and the monster is returned to the top of the Deck.

If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is changed to a Fiend-Type or a Zombie-Type by "DNA Surgery" and is attacked by "Getsu Fuhma", "Getsu Fuhma"'s effect is Step 1 of a chain because the turn player is Step 1, and "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is Step 2. "Legendary Jujitsu Master" resolves first and "Getsu Fuhma" is sent back to the top of the Deck, then "Getsu Fuhma"'s effect resolves and "Legendary Jujitsu Master" is destroyed.

If you have "Destruction Punch"'s effect, and your opponent attacks your "Legendary Jujitsu Master", you resolve the 2 effects in a chain with the controller (the defending player) choosing the order."""

So, the official source tell us its effect work no matter who battled it.
Okay, I know it doesn't say much... but makes you think.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
As I stated earlier in this thread, "When this card attacks..." can only happen "If this card attacks...", which means that it has already successfully attacked a monster.

So, basically, when the controller declares an attack, there are only so many cards that can negate an attack. Negate Attack wont work against him, because he can't be Targeted by a Trap Card. You can't activate Mirror Force because that would be activating the effect in the Battle Phase, which you can't do (until the end of the Damage Step).
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makes perfect sense to me :D
thanks for confirming.


hmm but can you help explain the rest if its not too much trouble?




"can someone explain to me why they think thay AGE must remain face up??

if not that, then can someone explain to me why it doesnt need to remain face up?


also why is it wrong to have the trigger effect triggering at "When this card attacks, " then have the effect activate at end of damage step

"
 
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mikoal said:
makes perfect sense to me :D
thanks for confirming.


hmm but can you help explain the rest if its not too much trouble?




"can someone explain to me why they think thay AGE must remain face up??

if not that, then can someone explain to me why it doesnt need to remain face up?


also why is it wrong to have the trigger effect triggering at "When this card attacks, " then have the effect activate at end of damage step

"
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For one, I don't believe it has to be face-up on the field or even remain on the field.

Two, I agree that the effect Triggers much earlier than the end of the Damage Step, and just "resolves" at the end of the Damage Step. Just like Ryu Kokki.

His effect is only dependant upon "attacking". He doesnt have to do Battle Damage, nor send a Monster to the Graveyard, and he doesnt have to be involved in Damage Calculation, which means that if he attacks a monster like Kiseitai, his effect will still activate. So, he should still be able to get his effect face-up, down, or RFG.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
For one, I don't believe it has to be face-up on the field or even remain on the field.

Two, I agree that the effect Triggers much earlier than the end of the Damage Step, and just "resolves" at the end of the Damage Step. Just like Ryu Kokki.

His effect is only dependant upon "attacking". He doesnt have to do Battle Damage, nor send a Monster to the Graveyard, and he doesnt have to be involved in Damage Calculation, which means that if he attacks a monster like Kiseitai, his effect will still activate. So, he should still be able to get his effect face-up, down, or RFG.
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hmmm i do agree with you
but this is not certain (an official ruling) because we dont know when it activates?>?
 
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mikoal said:
hmmm i do agree with you
but this is not certain (an official ruling) because we dont know when it activates?>?
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Read Kiseitai's effect

When your opponent's monster attacks this card in face-down Defense Position, this card becomes an Equip Spell Card equipped to the attacking monster (No damage calculation is conducted). During each of your opponent's Standby Phases, increase your Life Points by half of the ATK of the monster equipped with this card.

And tell me why it matters when Engineer's effect activates, when all it is required to do is "attack"....
 
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I re-read Sub-Step 6, and it IS a strange one.

Lets see:
Getsu Fuhma attacks a Sangan equipped with Mist Body.
Sangan is not destroyed during damage calculation because of Mist Body.
Sub-Step 5 is empty.
Then destroyed monsters are sent to the graveyard - there are none.
Then the effect of Getsu Fuhma starts a chain. At resolution Sangan is destroyed and sent to the graveyard along with Mist Body.
THEN the effect of Sangan activates and starts a 2nd chain.
So the effect of Sangan and Getsu Fuhma activate at different times which means they shouldnt be in the same sub-step.
At least in my opinion.

But to be more on topic:
Hydrogeddon's effect triggers in Sub-Step 6, and if it was destroyed in battle and sent to the grave its effect wont trigger because it has to be on the field at that time.
If AGE's effect triggers in Sub-Step 6 (after destroyed monsters were sent to the grave), then this should apply to it as well.
 
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Fury said:
I re-read Sub-Step 6, and it IS a strange one.

Lets see:
Getsu Fuhma attacks a Sangan equipped with Mist Body.
Sangan is not destroyed during damage calculation because of Mist Body.
Sub-Step 5 is empty.
Then destroyed monsters are sent to the graveyard - there are none.
Then the effect of Getsu Fuhma starts a chain. At resolution Sangan is destroyed and sent to the graveyard along with Mist Body.
THEN the effect of Sangan activates and starts a 2nd chain.
So the effect of Sangan and Getsu Fuhma activate at different times which means they shouldnt be in the same sub-step.
At least in my opinion.

But to be more on topic:
Hydrogeddon's effect triggers in Sub-Step 6, and if it was destroyed in battle and sent to the grave its effect wont trigger because it has to be on the field at that time.
If AGE's effect triggers in Sub-Step 6 (after destroyed monsters were sent to the grave), then this should apply to it as well.
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This is not the same as Ancient Gear Engineer. Hydrogeddon must actually send a Monster to the Graveyard while it is still on the field. That is written into its text.

Ancient Gear Engineer only has to "attack". There is no other requirement to resolve his effect.

Think of it this way, Compare Hydrogeddon to someone trying to mail a letter. If Hydrogeddon must go to the Post Office to send the letter, if he gets into a accident (attacks a monster with same ATK) on his way there and hospitalized (destroyed in Battle), does the letter get sent (by Hydrogeddon)? No.

Now, compare Ancient Gear Engineer to someone who only has to "write a letter". If Ancient Gear Engineer writes a letter (attacks), but remembers he needs extra postage if he wants to mail it (attacked monster was f/d Old Vindictive Magician), so he goes to buy more stamps (gets sent to the Graveyard), did he complete what he started? Yes. He only had to write a letter. He didnt need to mail it (destroy monster in Battle), nor did he need to buy more stamps for it (send to Graveyard).
 
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Fury said:
My problem with your reasoning is that you only want to resolve its effect, but I want it to trigger and activate, too.
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What everybody needs to understand here is that Trigger Effects have 3 separate points to them.

1. Trigger point.
2. Activation.
3. Resolution.

These 3 events do NOT always happen at the same time.

Take "Getsu Fuhma". It's trigger point is when it enters into Damage Calculation when battling with a Fiend or Zombie. Does it's effect activate here? No. It activates at the end of the Damage Step, during Sub Step 6. If "Getsu Fuhma" is removed from the field before Sub Step 6, it's effect will still activate AND resolve because it's Trigger point was met successfully, AND it's effect doesn't have anything to do with sending anything anywhere, or affecting itself.

So, take "Ancient Gear Engineer" now. It's Trigger Point is when it attacks. Does it's effect activate at this time? No. It activates during Sub Step 6 at the end of the Damage Step. Does it have to be face-up on the field? No. Because it's effect isn't sending anything anywhere, nor doing anything to itself.

It's not a very hard concept to understand here folks....lol.
 
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I know I'm late here, but I'm going to have to say that Engineer would have to survive to activate his effect, but just make sure that the ATTACK reaches the end of the Damage Step. I forgot where the example was where you can reach the end of the Damage Step without an attacker, but I think there's some obscure way to do so. But basically, he'll have to survive the attack except for that special case. If I'm completely off-base, then I guess I am that rusty. ^_^;;

-chaosruler
 
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chaosruler said:
I know I'm late here, but I'm going to have to say that Engineer would have to survive to activate his effect, but just make sure that the ATTACK reaches the end of the Damage Step. I forgot where the example was where you can reach the end of the Damage Step without an attacker, but I think there's some obscure way to do so. But basically, he'll have to survive the attack except for that special case. If I'm completely off-base, then I guess I am that rusty. ^_^;;

-chaosruler
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The "attack" reaching the end of the Damage Step sounds like a very long sentence without a period. When you attack, it is either successful, or it isnt. If it is successful, two things can happen

Battle
No Battle

Battle depends on there being "Damage" calculated. If there is no Damage Calculation, Battle is not considered to have been conducted, and that is where I think you confused things here.

Monsters that require Damage to be conducted for their effects to trigger, will not activate if Damage Calculation is not part of the Damage Step, and Ancient Gear Engineer is not one of those.
 
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@JD: nvm, it's not my intention to question your level of knowledge ^^
I just wanted to keep things clear and unambiguous :)

Fury said:
I re-read Sub-Step 6, and it IS a strange one.

Lets see:
Getsu Fuhma attacks a Sangan equipped with Mist Body.
Sangan is not destroyed during damage calculation because of Mist Body.
Sub-Step 5 is empty.
Then destroyed monsters are sent to the graveyard - there are none.
Then the effect of Getsu Fuhma starts a chain. At resolution Sangan is destroyed and sent to the graveyard along with Mist Body.
THEN the effect of Sangan activates and starts a 2nd chain.
So the effect of Sangan and Getsu Fuhma activate at different times which means they shouldnt be in the same sub-step.
At least in my opinion.
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SubStep 6 can contain more than one chain.
(as opposed to SubStep 3, which can only contain 1 chain at max.)

skey23 said:
So, take "Ancient Gear Engineer" now. It's Trigger Point is when it attacks. Does it's effect activate at this time? No. It activates during Sub Step 6 at the end of the Damage Step. Does it have to be face-up on the field? No. Because it's effect isn't sending anything anywhere, nor doing anything to itself.
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Agreed except for the "it's effect isn't sending anything anywhere". Its effect destroys a S/T card on the field and will most likely send it to the graveyard as well.

Maybe you meant "it doesn't have to send a monster somewhere (as a result on battle) in order to satisfy its trigger condition" (as opposed to Hydrogeddon)?

chaosruler said:
I forgot where the example was where you can reach the end of the Damage Step without an attacker, but I think there's some obscure way to do so.
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As long as the Damage Step is entered, its end will also be reached, since it has to end, with or without an attacker.
 
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Martok said:
Agreed except for the "it's effect isn't sending anything anywhere". Its effect destroys a S/T card on the field and will most likely send it to the graveyard as well.

Maybe you meant "it doesn't have to send a monster somewhere (as a result on battle) in order to satisfy its trigger condition" (as opposed to Hydrogeddon)?
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No, I said it exactly like I meant it.

It merely destroys the Spell/Trap card, it doesn't care whether or not that Spell/Trap card goes to the Graveyard or to the RFP Pile. If the effect stated to "destroy a Spell/Trap Card on the field and send it to the Graveyard", then there would be no question as to whether or not it needed to remain on the field the whole time. It would. But since it does not 'send anything anywhere', it doesn't care where it ends up, so it doesn't need to be on the field to 'double check' the card made it to the correct place, since there isn't a 'correct' place.

I'll kindly ask that you please quit trying to put words into my mouth. I say things exactly as I intend to.
 
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skey23 said:
No, I said it exactly like I meant it.

It merely destroys the Spell/Trap card, it doesn't care whether or not that Spell/Trap card goes to the Graveyard or to the RFP Pile. If the effect stated to "destroy a Spell/Trap Card on the field and send it to the Graveyard", then there would be no question as to whether or not it needed to remain on the field the whole time. It would. But since it does not 'send anything anywhere', it doesn't care where it ends up, so it doesn't need to be on the field to 'double check' the card made it to the correct place, since there isn't a 'correct' place.
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So if the effect would be "return 1 card on the field to the owner's hand" or "remove 1 card on the field from play", it would require AGE to stay on the field until the effect activates?

skey23 said:
I'll kindly ask that you please quit trying to put words into my mouth. I say things exactly as I intend to.
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I'm not trying to put anything into your mouth. The question marks in this and in my last posting are there to show that I'm not sure what you mean.
 
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Yeah, that doesn't match up with these too well:
Chainsaw Insect

Getsu Fuhma

Hyper Hammerhead

Legendary Jujitsu Master

Ryu Kokki


Makes it hard to make a formula for Rules Interpretation (you know how I like those).
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Makes it hard to make a formula for Rules Interpretation (you know how I like those).
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Attempting to apply logic where none exists will only yield a headache.

:eek:rcspash:

<begin silly mixing of real and fake concepts for amusement>

Perhaps Yu-Gi-Oh! is actually a far more advanced game then even we realize. If you were to apply some Quantum Physics theories here and assume the rulings are as you perceive them to be, if you can change your perception you can change the ruling.

Unfortunately even proper application of this theory will only alter your personal universe and likely cause a "Dark Hole" to open where the Earth currently is and everyone will be sucked in and instantly crushed down into a singularity (ouch!). You'll have nobody to duel except the people you still perceive to exist, but at least they'll play by your rules.

Now, if we were to take a pair of Quantum-entangled BKSS particles and send them off in opposite directions at the speed of light, THEN open the "Dark Hole" by flip-summoning "Magician of Faith" (caution: doesn't work after 3/1/2007!), and somehow manage to get ONE of those particles to fall in ... well, now you're onto something. I certainly can't tell exactly what would happen off the top of my head, but I think time might go backwards. If you're at all "Normal" and you happened to have played "Non-Spellcasting Area", you should be immune to the "Dark Hole", thus allowing you to wait patiently until the day when the head of rules for Konami was to be born, and fix the problem once and for all. For the rest of us anyway, since you have no way to return to the current timeline. Unless we perceive you to be here, then that would mean you never left and the ruling would stand.

Seems like a no-win scenario to me, and having a quantum-entangled BKSS particle whose partner has been crushed into a singularity roaming around the universe unchecked is the LAST thing we need.

</silliness>


(No alcohol was consumed prior to, during, or after this post. Hard to believe given that nonsense, huh?)
 
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"Great, kid! Don't get c ocky!"

The inconsistancies keep coming with the STON rulings and Neo-Spacian Glow Moss. I'll put a link here to the Thread I started on it, when it finally pops up.

"wait patiently until the day when the head of rules for Konami was to be born, and fix the problem once and for all." -djp, looking for a rules Messiah! Born to set the YGO captive free!
 
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