Basic Priority Questions

[carlossilva]

... or they should be, but while browsing through several forums I've often read contradictory answers ( whether direct or implied ) so I've decided to place them here.

1. After the turn player draws a card in his/her draw phase, who has priority to activate a quickplay spell or trap card?

2. After an attack is declared by the turn player, who has priority to activate a card in response to the attack ?

3. After a chain has completely resolved, who has priority to respond to the end of the chain? ( I've read it's the turn player, I've read it's the opponent of the controller of the last effect to resolve - this last one actually came from UDE ... )

Thanks

Carlos

 

[novastar]

I misread your post...i had to re-read it...we were actually saying the same thing... i got confused...

 

[Jason_C]

I misread your post...i had to re-read it...we were actually saying the same thing... i got confused...

O_O Well, I should re-edit my last post.

 

[novastar]

I know that it's not to be used as an accurate reference...but go play any of the GBA games.

In the Main Phase you will see...as soon as you enter the Main Phase, it stops you right there... and you have several options.

- Summon
- Activate
- End Phase

There is no outstanding timing at all... you are just given Priority. ...that is what i mean by Non-Response Window...or i'll say Normal Window.

When you resolve and effect, event or action it pops up with a question saying ..."[this] happened...do you want to activate and effect?"

That is a Response Window...the game forces you to resolve that timing, by saying yes or no, essentially a pass or activate, 2 choices. At no point druing Response timing can you end the Phase.

Then you are given a Non-Response again...with the same 3 options.

It's a decent illustration of what i've been saying for while now...

 

[Jason_C]

Hmm... I've used the show to further my case several times, so I won't disregard the games (despite never having played one). I will, however, merely point out that YGO originated from the show, while the games are just a spinoff.

That said, the concept of entering immediately into a non-responsive window in the Main Phase does intrigue me. I can hardly agree with it, since ALL of the other phases have response windows to their entrance. But then again, there's a reason why there are separate phases, and that reason is that they act differently. I shall have to think about that.

Are there any rulings or judges junk that reference this issue?

 

[John Danker]

Some of the feedback I'm getting in the L3 judge's list ......<shaking head cartoon style> IEIEIEIEIEIEIEIEI

Oh yeah...this is going to be good <laughing heartily> I'm not going to give a play by play...it just wouldn't be fair. I'm going to let this topic slug out for a few days on that board and get more input from Dan or Kevin (hopefully) before trying to formulate any additional comments.

 

[Dillie-O]

Man, I feel like a lowly Greek Hero, sitting at the foot of Mt. Olympus, able to see the lightning and comprehend the roar of thunder while the gods above duke it out in a brawl. If I could only ascend to the heights and take part or view such a battle...

<sigh /> back to the studying I guess... 8^D

 

[djp952]

I just wish they could bring the entire conversation here for all of us to watch. The Council and the moderator staff could prevent anyone other than the intended participants from posting. We have quite an "adult" forum here compared to anywhere else, and it's a crying shame that the gaming public cannot witness the effort and discussions that take place on our behalf. Understandably, not everything could be discussed in this fashion, but c'mon .. this priority thing has gone on way too long (over a year now?) and is constantly left to interpretation.

Especially in this case, since (no offense to John), there will very likely be no "public" output from this conversation on the "even Mike Brehm can get there" area, or the public FAQ for all the world to see. Shame. At least if the conversation was public here, it's something guests could come and read without even signing up.

[Personally, I think this thread over-complicates a number of things, but of course me only being Level 1, I should generally keep my mouth shut about topics like this]

 

[Raijinili]

Begin Draw Phase
- Check for effects that resolve before Draw ("Hino-Kagu-Tsuchi", "Maharaghi")
- Priority is given to Turn Player.
- Turn Player Draws a card.
- - Draw Response Window
- - - Turn Player retains Priority and gets to respond first or pass.
- - - - If response
- - - - - Build response chain as normal.
- - - - - Resolve response chain as normal.
- - - - If pass
- - - - - Priority is passed to opponent.
- - - Opponent gains Priority and can respond or pass.
- - - - If response
- - - - - Build response chain as normal.
- - - - - Resolve response chain as normal.
- - - - If pass
- - - - - Priority it passed back to Turn Player.
- - - If both players have passed consecutively, then end Draw Phase. Otherwise, continue to Non-response window.

For every successfully resolved chain, there is a chain point to respond to it (barring effects that end the phase, of course).

If both players decline to respond, there is another chain point without a Last Event to consider. What I thought you people were calling the Non-Responsive Window (and what I've been calling "Normal turn priority" for a long time), but now I'm in doubt o.o

If either player responds and the response chain successfully resolves, there is a chain point where either player can respond to the previous response chain. In other words, a response chain for a response chain.

Edit: To make it clear, I don't agree with your assessment.

 

[skey23]

For every successfully resolved chain, there is a chain point to respond to it (barring effects that end the phase, of course).

If both players decline to respond, there is another chain point without a Last Event to consider. What I thought you people were calling the Non-Responsive Window (and what I've been calling "Normal turn priority" for a long time), but now I'm in doubt o.o

If either player responds and the response chain successfully resolves, there is a chain point where either player can respond to the previous response chain. In other words, a response chain for a response chain.

Edit: To make it clear, I don't agree with your assessment.

Well, that seems to be what Novastar was talking about earlier, if I'm not mistaken. Ok, so let's try this now...lol...

Begin Draw Phase
- Check for effects that resolve before Draw ("Hino-Kagu-Tsuchi", "Maharaghi")
- Priority is given to Turn Player.
- Turn Player Draws a card.
- - Response Window
- - - Turn Player retains Priority and gets to respond first or pass.
- - - - If response
- - - - - Build response chain as normal.
- - - - - Resolve response chain as normal.
- - - - If pass
- - - - - Priority is passed to opponent.
- - - Opponent gains Priority and can respond or pass.
- - - - If response
- - - - - Build response chain as normal.
- - - - - Resolve response chain as normal.
- - - - If pass
- - - - - Priority it passed back to Turn Player.
- - - If either player started a response chain then return to Response window above.
- - - If both players have passed consecutively, then continue to Non-response window.
- - Non-response window.
- - - Turn Player can begin a chain or pass Priority.
- - - - If response
- - - - - Build response chain as normal.
- - - - - Resolve resonse chain as normal.
- - - - If pass
- - - - - Priority is passed to opponent.
- - - Opponent gains Priority and can respond or pass.
- - - - If response
- - - - - Build response chain as normal.
- - - - - Resolve response chain as normal.
- - - - If pass
- - - - - Priority it passed back to Turn Player.
- - - If either player started a response chain then return to Response window above.
- - - If both players have passed consecutively, then end Draw Phase. Otherwise, return to Response window.
End Draw Phase

This version has multiple possible Response Windows, and multiple possible Non-response Windows with the Phase ending ONLY if both players pass Priority during a Non-response window.

Does that sound better? Lol..

 

[slither]

Man I missed 3 whole pages of discussion because of work =P...

Anyways, before I make a personal input, there were 2 things that caught my eye on all of those 3 pages, one in regards to this: <it's very late here, so please if there is something wrong or incoherent with this point call upon it >

The only time you would have a "Priority" in the Draw Phase would be if you Draw a Quick-Play, or, HAVE a Quick-play or Trap Set, or a Continuous Effect that triggered upon Drawing a card. Otherwise, your just stalling for time trying to use something you dont have unless certain requirements are met.

From what im understanding, if I chose not to call priority, would this mean that I would not be able to chain to Drop Off a Quick Spell card that I had drawn? If I chose not to activate it at the moment I drew it of course.

I know that would not be the case, I was just wondering due to the way it's stated.

Number 2: in a previous post there was some mentioning about Horus Lv4, which caught my eye and some doubt about something <make note that this is a little bit off topic "on topic">

Let's detail this example: P1 (turn player), P2 (non-turn player)

P1's field 2 set trap/spell (Scapegoat and Dust Tornado) and Horus Lv8
P2's field 3 set trap/spell (2 Dust Tornado and Magic Jammer)

P1's turn:
P1 passes priority upon entering MP1 decides to do nothing.
P2 activates his set Dust Tornado targetting P1 set Dust Tornado
P1 chains his set Dust Tornado targetting the other set Dust Tornado on P2 field
P2 chain his other Dust Tornado targetting P1 set Scapegoat
---------------------------------------------------------------
At this time, Horus Lv8 effect can be activated, being P1 turn, would he be able to negate Scapegoat before P2 could activate Magic Jammer??

If that would be the case, how come P1 would get 2 secuencial chances to act upon a "state".

Or would Horus Lv8 miss the timing <-- which it would be pretty unlikely.

 

[skey23]

From what im understanding, if I chose not to call priority, would this mean that I would not be able to chain to Drop Off a Quick Spell card that I had drawn? If I chose not to activate it at the moment I drew it of course.

You are still given the chance to respond to anything your opponent activates in response to the Draw. So, if you draw "Mystical Space Typhoon" and pass Priority to your opponent, then they activate "Drop Off", you CAN chain that "Mystical Space Typhoon" from your hand. Simple chaining rules.

Let's detail this example: P1 (turn player), P2 (non-turn player)

P1's field 2 set trap/spell (Scapegoat and Dust Tornado) and Horus Lv8
P2's field 3 set trap/spell (2 Dust Tornado and Magic Jammer)

P1's turn:
P1 passes priority upon entering MP1 decides to do nothing.
P2 activates his set Dust Tornado targetting P1 set Dust Tornado
P1 chains his set Dust Tornado targetting the other set Dust Tornado on P2 field
P2 chain his other Dust Tornado targetting P1 set Scapegoat
---------------------------------------------------------------
At this time, Horus Lv8 effect can be activated, being P1 turn, would he be able to negate Scapegoat before P2 could activate Magic Jammer??

My question would be this...

Why would P1 want to negate the activation of his own "Scapegoat" with "Horus LV8"s effect instead of simply letting it be destroyed by P2's "Dust Tornado"? But I digress...

Now, to answer your question, given the scenario you presented, P1 would NOT be able to immediately chain "Horus LV8"s effect IF they chained "Scapegoat" to P2's "Dust Tornado". This is not an issue of Priority. This is simple chaining rules. If P1 chains "Scapegoat" to P2's "Dust Tornado", they MUST allow P2 to respond to that activation before they could chain anything to "Scapegoat".

 

[Jason_C]

[Personally, I think this thread over-complicates a number of things, but of course me only being Level 1, I should generally keep my mouth shut about topics like this]

...and, of course, me being a 13-year-old level 0, I haven't yet learned to keep my mouth shut, hence why I continue to argue with these level 2s and 3s here. That last message from Dan shamelessly encouraged me.

P1 would NOT be able to immediately chain "Horus LV8"s effect IF they chained "Scapegoat" to P2's "Dust Tornado". This is not an issue of Priority. This is simple chaining rules.

You are correct about the result, but I disagree with the Reasoning. This is indeed an issue of priority, admittedly one that stems from simple chain rules. And now, here comes another rant...

There is no point in time when neither player has priority. SOMEONE always has it. There is no card that can ever be activated or action that can ever be performed by a player who does NOT have priority. Priority is in essence the ability to do stuff. Therefore, upon activating Scapegoat, P1 would be USING his priority, and, as always happens when priority is used, it would be exhausted, and flip-flop over to the opponent, who may now activate Magic Jammer. Chain mechanics, but chain mechanics revolving around priority.

 

[John Danker]

Quite honestly, what's being replied on the L3 board doesn't look all that much different than what's being stated here (a little more orginized and with the proper terminology but other than that very close) It's becoming very obvious that most people who have been in the game and make a good effort to understand it have been forced to form their own definition. Most all of us can justify to a fairly satisfactory level that definition in our own mind's eye. The problem is, in reality, it's still all just speculation. Granted, it's often entertaining speculation...but speculation none the less.

I AM working really hard to get something put out on the general judge's board. Quite honestly I think you'll see something withing the next 1-3 months in that way.

 

[soulwarrior]

Well, if Mr. Tewart would stop making stupid jokes and would come up with an answer, all would be fine.
I don't see the point why Dan Scheidegger can always come up with an answer and Mr. Tewart is always 'bound to law' and can't talk about these stuff in public.

I for one am really impressed how much effort John put in this whole conversation.
I started the same topic 2 months ago, no one wanted to reply or at least no one wanted to continue the discussion and it seems that it's working this time - thanks to Mr. Danker.

There was more than one point when I was close to throwing my head on the table and a kind reply from John made it possible that I didn't lose focus...

soul

 

[slither]

Thanks skey and Jason, I woke up this morning thinking about what I posted last night <could barely focus>, thinking about being just simple chain priority mechanics, though the Horus bit was really a stickler, ok now that im thinking straight I got my doubts cleared up anyways.

John, "patience is a virtue" , granted we have to wait 1-3 months.

 

[John Danker]

I'll take 1-3 months over 1-3 more years.
As I pointed out on the L3 judge's board, we'd all like to think we have this all down pat, let's not kid ourselves though, we don't and ignoring it doesn't help, that would be irresponsable and immature, not admirable traits for a judge.

 

[slither]

Sorry to bring this question up in this thread, but I promise it has a point:

Do you HAVE to go through ALL your phases in the game?

 

[Jason_C]

Sorry to bring this question up in this thread, but I promise it has a point:

Do you HAVE to go through ALL your phases in the game?

As I understand it, the Battle Phase and Main Phase 2 are optional. But why?

Or are you referring to a judges' list "game"? *is lost*

 

[masterwoo0]

Battle Phase is Optional, and to not conduct it means that you DO NOT get a Main Phase 2, so that part is not really optional, as you do not have a choice.

If you conduct your Battle Phase, then Main Phase 2 is similar to your Standby Phase. You can enter it, but if you dont have anything to do, you may do nothing, pass priority to opponent, then exit to End Phase of turn, then end turn.

 

[novastar]

If both players decline to respond, there is another chain point without a Last Event to consider. What I thought you people were calling the Non-Responsive Window (and what I've been calling "Normal turn priority" for a long time), but now I'm in doubt o.o

We are in complete agreement here (as i'm sure you already know).

Now we need to find some backup... impossible i know :->

If either player responds and the response chain successfully resolves, there is a chain point where either player can respond to the previous response chain. In other words, a response chain for a response chain.

Again in complete agreement. If you keep responding, it just becomes one response chain after another... exactly what i said to Jason.

It's not "a non-response if neccessary" ...as that doesn't make sense. Response Chains are the optional, completelydependant on something occuring that cause timing.

My only conclusion to why they would allow to you move through Phases/Steps passing on response timing, is to simplify the game. It seems like an attempt to speed up all the Phases/Step outside of the Main Phase.