Been thinking about complex chains, Standby Phase, and End Phase lately...

[Tkwiget]

Lately I've been thinking of generating some scenarios that have complex chain blocks in the Standby Phase and End Phase.

So far all I've come up with is one interesting complex chain block in the End Phase.

Player A: 2300 Life Points
Player B: 200 Life Points

Player Fields:
Player A has a face up Ectoplasmer and Two-Man Cell Battle with a face up Dark Necrofear and Twin-Headed Behemoth in attack position. Player A has Gemini Elf in hand.

Player B has a face up Cyber Dragon, Treeborn Frog, and Spirit Reaper in defense position with a face down Mirror Force.

Actual Scenario:
Player A attacks Cyber Dragon with Dark Necrofear. Player B responds with Mirror Force. All of Player A's face up attack positioned monsters are destroyed. Player A moves to his End Phase. Dark Necrofear, Twin-Headed Behemoth, and Two-Man Cell Battle activate all at the same time.

Player A decides to make the Chain Link order this.

Link 1: Dark Necrofear
Link 2: Twin-Headed Behemoth
Link 3: Two-Man Cell Battle

Two-Man Cell Battle resolves and Special Summons Gemini Elf. When Dark Necrofear activates and resolves, it targets Spirit Reaper. At this point Spirit Reaper and Ectoplasmer activate at the same time. Player A controls both effects. Player A decides to resolve the chain block in this order.

Link 1: Spirit Reaper
Link 2: Ectoplasmer

Since both effects are continuous, they aren't being chained to one another. Player A is the Turn Player and can decide which effect is placed on the Chain Block first.

Question:
Did I resolve this scenario correctly or am I missing something?

 

[anthonyj]

A little detail: is it really one effect at a time ? I thought Turn Player could choose to resolve a number of his effects ( not necessarily only one ) before passing, and the same for the non-turn player. Then, when both players have already passed once , turn player would have to resolve all of his remaining effects, after which non-turn would resolve all that were left. Was I wrong ?

Thanks

Carlos

Re-read what I posted previously. The Turn Player could easily bunch multiple effects (barring the non-turn player choosing to activate a response chain) because the sequence runs as follows: Basically you start with the Turn Player who may resolve one of his effects, or he may pass and allow the non-turn player to resolve one of his own effects, the non-turn player may take that opportunity or may also pass at which point it becomes mandatory for the Turn Player to choose and resolve one of his own effects. After which the regular rules of chaining and response chains apply and then you repeat the process for each additional effect that still needs to be taken care of.

So this certainly is not SEGOC and nothing is triggering when you enter the Phase. These are just effects that need to be addressed by the Controller of the effect before the Phase has ended. The Non-Turn Player does not get the opportunity to resolve one of the effects he controls until the Turn Player has passed on the opportunity to resolve one of his own (or until the Turn Player has no more effects that they need to handle).

 

[FelixChCh]

You didn't have to point out another error in one of my scenarios. It just makes me feel a lot worse that I can't come up with a legal scenario. =/

I just need to clear my head on this for right now.

Hey - no worries. I know exactly what it feels like! I was putting up scenarios for simultaneous effects on a different thread, and chained MST to Seven tools of the bandit. Clearly I had proposed a sToOopid thing!

 

[slither]

Hey - no worries. I know exactly what it feels like! I was putting up scenarios for simultaneous effects on a different thread, and chained MST to Seven tools of the bandit. Clearly I had proposed a sToOopid thing!

Spell Speeds, you gotta love 'em :dj_eek

 

[John Danker]

<having read through a little more of the thread> With most of the effects you've been using in examples yes....quite correct, it's not SEGOC....as I said, I hadn't read through much of it, thanks for the clarification!

This is a must read thread in my eyes. While some may think this thread is a lot of technical drizzle those of you who have taken the L2 or L3 test know that you'll be seeing such questions and if you've ever run into scenarios (granted, likely with not nearly as many cards involved) you know how important it is to understand how the standby phase and end phase are different because of the effects that either activate or need to be maintained in those phases.

Good reading

 

[Tkwiget]

Player A has Creature Swap and Giant Rat in hand with a face up Attack Position Rescue Rat.

Player B has a face up Karate Man in Attack Position with a Strike Ninja removed from play via Strike Ninja's effect and a Don Zaloog removed from play via Interdimensional Matter Transporter's effect.

It's Player A's turn.

Player A normal summons Giant Rat. Player A activates Creature Swap. Upon resolution Player A gives Player B his Giant Rat. Player B gives Player A his Karate Man. Player A activates Karate Man's effect. Player A activates Rescue Cat and sends it to the Graveyard to Special Summon two The Wicked Worm Beast from the deck.

Player A attacks Giant Rat with Karate Man and deals 600 points of Battle Damage to Player B. Player A Special Summons a The Wicked Worm Beast via Giant rat's effect. Player A attacks directly with the three The Wicked Worm beast and deals 4200 points of Battle Damage to Player B.

Player A moves to his End Phase.

Player A controls the following effects (currently): Karate Man, The Wicked Worm Beast (returning to hand), The Wicked Worm Beast (Rescue Cat), The Wicked Worm Beast (Rescue Cat), and Rescue Rat.

Player B controls the following effects(currently): Interdimensional Matter Transporter and Strike Ninja.

Player A decides to resolve The Wicked Worm Beast that he Special Summoned from Giant Rat's effect. It returns to his hand. Player A passes to Player B. Player B decides to resolve nothing and passes back to Player A. Player A must resolve an effect and decides to resolve Karate Man's effect. Karate Man destroys himself via his own effect. Player A passes to Player B. Player B decides not to resolve anything again and passes back to Player A. Player A must resolve either Rescue Cat or one of this The Wicked Worm Beast effects. He resolves Rescue Cat and destroys both of his The Wicked Worm Beast that were Special Summoned by Rescue Cat.

Now Player B must resolve his two effects. Don Zaloog and Strike Ninja return to the field in their original position that they left the field.

Did I resolve the situation correctly? I'll assume it's full of errors like my other examples.

 

[slither]

Player A normal summons Giant Rat. Player A activates Creature Swap. Upon resolution Player A gives Player B his Giant Rat. Player B gives Player A his Karate Man. Player A activates Karate Man's effect. Player A activates Rescue Cat and sends it to the Graveyard to Special Summon two The Wicked Worm Beast from the deck.

Player A attacks Giant Rat with Karate Man and deals 600 points of Battle Damage to Player B. Player A Special Summons a The Wicked Worm Beast via Giant rat's effect. Player A attacks directly with the three The Wicked Worm beast and deals 4200 points of Battle Damage to Player B.

Im not sure about the resolution, cause I got really lost here... this all happened on the same turn?

Both Rescue Cat's and Karate Man's effect are ignition effects, so either PA or PB could not activate one of those 2 effects....

 

[Tkwiget]

The actual card activation isn't what the situation is about. It's about the left over effects resolving at the End Phase.

Karate Man's effect kills himself at the End Phase. Rescue Cat's effect does the same thing to the monster it special summons. Get what I'm saying?

I just don't understand how multiple conditions or lingering effects resolve in the Standby and End Phase yet. That's what I'm trying to learn and understand right now. =/

 

[slither]

Ah ok, i'll disregard that then , the only thing I see a problem with is that if either player has an effect to resolve he/she must resolve it, so I don't believe that Player B could just pass if there is an effect to resolve from him.

 

[Tkwiget]

Well from how John, Anthony, and Skey have explained it to me is that the Turn Player is the person that initiates the passing and the Non-Turn Player (Player B in my example) can pass back to the Turn Player without resolving any outstanding effects. Then the Turn Player must resolve something in order to pass it back to the Non-Turn Player.

That's the part I'm confused on and it rattles my brain when I try and sort it all out. =/

 

[slither]

Turn-player does indeed initiate the passing, but Player B in your example passes twice, from my stand point the second time around Player B must resolve 1 effect.

 

[skey23]

Player A decides to resolve The Wicked Worm Beast that he Special Summoned from Giant Rat's effect. It returns to his hand. Player A passes to Player B. Player B decides to resolve nothing and passes back to Player A. Player A must resolve an effect and decides to resolve Karate Man's effect. Karate Man destroys himself via his own effect. Player A passes to Player B. Player B decides not to resolve anything again and passes back to Player A. Player A must resolve either Rescue Cat or one of this The Wicked Worm Beast effects. He resolves Rescue Cat and destroys both of his The Wicked Worm Beast that were Special Summoned by Rescue Cat.

Now Player B must resolve his two effects. Don Zaloog and Strike Ninja return to the field in their original position that they left the field.

Did I resolve the situation correctly? I'll assume it's full of errors like my other examples.

You are sooooo close!

When you enter the End Phase, Priority starts with Player A who can resolve or pass. If they choose to resolve, then when Player A resolves his effect, Priority automatically passes to Player B, who can resolve or pass. If they pass, then Player A is NOT required to resolve anything since Priority started with Player B. So Player A can resolve or pass. Now if Player A passes, then Player B MUST to resolve an effect. Once finished, Priority will automatically pass back to Player A, who can resolve or pass. If they pass, then Player B can resolve or pass. Now, Player A MUST resolve an effect. Rinse and repeat until all effects have been resolved.

Hope this helps!

 

[Tkwiget]

You are sooooo close!

When you enter the End Phase, Priority starts with Player A who can resolve or pass. If they choose to resolve, then when Player A resolves his effect, Priority automatically passes to Player B, who can resolve or pass. If they pass, then Player A is NOT required to resolve anything since Priority started with Player B. So Player A can resolve or pass. Now if Player A passes, then Player B MUST to resolve an effect. Once finished, Priority will automatically pass back to Player A, who can resolve or pass. If they pass, then Player B can resolve or pass. Now, Player A MUST resolve an effect. Rinse and repeat until all effects have been resolved.

Hope this helps!

Sort of. I had to bust out the pen and paper again and draw up a chart in order to understand what the heck you were trying to explain. I'll attempt to re-create my chart on this message board.

@ = Resolving an effect
X = Passing Priority
<- or -> = Who's passing priority to who.

Player A is on the left and Player B is on the right.

@ -> X
X <- @
X -> X
@ <- X
X -> @
X <- X
@ -> X
etc..etc..

That's the chart I created from how you explained it. A little hard to follow, but I've found making little charts like that on paper a lot easier to make this stuff understandable. <shrugs> At least that's how I've learned a lot of some of the game mechanics in this game. Such as chain blocks and such.

I feel I'm getting a little closer to understanding this stuff.

I'll resolve my example based on that chart.

===========

Player A controls the following effects (currently): Karate Man, The Wicked Worm Beast (returning to hand), The Wicked Worm Beast (Rescue Cat), The Wicked Worm Beast (Rescue Cat), and Rescue Rat.

Player B controls the following effects(currently): Interdimensional Matter Transporter and Strike Ninja.

Player A has Priority. Player A resolves The Wicked Worm Beast that was Special Summoned from Giant rat's effect. That copy of The Wicked Worm Beast returns to Player A's hand. Player A passes to Player B. Player B passes back to Player A. Player A passes back to Player B. Player B resolves Strike Ninja's effect and returns him to the field. Player B passes to Player A. Player A passes back to Player B. Player B passes back to Player A. Player A resolves Rescue Cat's effect and destroys the two The Wicked Worm Beast that were Special Summoned by Rescue Cat's effect. Player A passes to Player B. Player B passes back to Player A. Player A passes back to Player B. Player B resolves the effect of Interdimensional Matter Transporter and returns Don Zaloog back to the field in its original position. Player B passes to Player A. Player A must resolve Karate Man's effect. Karate Man is destroyed by its own effect.

Now did I resolve that situation correctly? @_@ I'm still a little confused. This stuff is kinda tough to learn and understand when I've never done any in-depth research and studying up on it. I still have a large amount of time before I plan on taking my L3 test. However, every day I spend trying to learn and understand this stuff is a day closer to passing my L3 test.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Hey, if somebody can come up with a rough layout of how chains and lingering effects resolve along with Continuous Effect interaction, I could make a chart similar to what we have in the VS section. It would be a bit more complex, for sure, but I bet we'd be the only site to have one. We could even look it over before it's "Officially" posted and work out the kinks together.

 

[Tkwiget]

I normally just go on the fly with this kind of stuff. I wouldn't mind putting my input on it. I just want to know if the way I have resolved my new situation is more accurate.

 

[skey23]

Player A controls the following effects (currently): Karate Man, The Wicked Worm Beast (returning to hand), The Wicked Worm Beast (Rescue Cat), The Wicked Worm Beast (Rescue Cat), and Rescue Rat.

Player B controls the following effects(currently): Interdimensional Matter Transporter and Strike Ninja.

Player A has Priority. Player A resolves The Wicked Worm Beast that was Special Summoned from Giant rat's effect. That copy of The Wicked Worm Beast returns to Player A's hand. Player A passes to Player B. Player B passes back to Player A. Player A passes back to Player B. Player B resolves Strike Ninja's effect and returns him to the field. Player B passes to Player A. Player A passes back to Player B. Player B passes back to Player A. Player A resolves Rescue Cat's effect and destroys the two The Wicked Worm Beast that were Special Summoned by Rescue Cat's effect. Player A passes to Player B. Player B passes back to Player A. Player A passes back to Player B. Player B resolves the effect of Interdimensional Matter Transporter and returns Don Zaloog back to the field in its original position. Player B passes to Player A. Player A must resolve Karate Man's effect. Karate Man is destroyed by its own effect.

Now did I resolve that situation correctly? @_@ I'm still a little confused. This stuff is kinda tough to learn and understand when I've never done any in-depth research and studying up on it. I still have a large amount of time before I plan on taking my L3 test. However, every day I spend trying to learn and understand this stuff is a day closer to passing my L3 test.

One thing that may help you is instead of saying Player A passes to Player B after they resolve their effects, simply state that Priority passes to Player X. That way it doesn't look like a triple pass. That's what's confusing me the most about your resolutions. Priority passing after the resolution is not a 'choice' by either player. This will also help to better see the double pass situation. The only time either player MUST resolve an effect is when both have passed consecutively.

Hope this helps!

 

[Tkwiget]

I only kept saying "Player A passes back to Player B", etc. because I wanted it to make the actions of how Priority is being passed from one player resolving an effect to another or passing it at all. That's all that was for. Sorry if it added confusion.

I don't understand what you meant by "The only time either player MUST resolve an effect is when both have passed consecutively." because with my chart, isn't that what's going on?

I'll re-type it with a little more detail.

@ = Resolving an effect
X = Passing Priority
<- or -> = Who's passing priority to who.

Player A is on the left and Player B is on the right.

**PA | PB
1) @ -> X
2) X <- @
3) X -> X
4) @ <- X
5) X -> @
6) X <- X
7) @ -> X
etc..etc..

1) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B passes Priority to Player A.

2) Player A passes Priority back to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

3) Player A passes Priority back to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A.

4) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A.

5) Player A passes Priority back to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

6) Player A passes Priority back to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A.

7) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B.

etc..etc..

@_@ I hope I'm understanding this a little more.

 

[skey23]

Ok, good, now, instead of doing the double passes each time, change it up so the either Player A or Player B decides to resolve an effect when Priority is passed to them after the other player initially gets Priority and passes it.

 

[Tkwiget]

@ = Resolving an effect
X = Passing Priority
<- or -> = Who's passing priority to who.

Player A is on the left and Player B is on the right.

**PA | PB
1) @ -> @
2) X <- @
3) X -> @
4) @ <- X
5) X -> @
6) @ <- X
7) @ -> @
etc..etc..

1) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

2) Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

3) Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

4) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A.

5) Player A passes Priority back to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

6) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B passes Priority to Player A.

7) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

etc..etc..

Do you mean like that?

 

[skey23]

Yup, now add where either Player A or B MUST resolve the effects and it 'should' be pretty complete and understandable.

 

[Tkwiget]

@ = Resolving an effect
X = Passing Priority
<- or -> = Who's passing priority to who.

Player A is on the left and Player B is on the right.

**PA | PB
1) @ -> @
2) X <- @
3) X -> @
4) @ <- X
5) X -> @
6) @ <- X
7) @ -> @
etc..etc..

1) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

2) Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

3) Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

4) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A.

5) Player A passes Priority back to Player B. Player B must resolve an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

6) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B passes Priority to Player A.

7) Player A resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves an effect. Priority auto-passes to Player A.

etc..etc..

In this one I could only find one spot. I have a feeling that Player A has to resolve an effect on Step 4, but I'm not sure. =/ This stuff is pretty new to me.