Been thinking about complex chains, Standby Phase, and End Phase lately...

T

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
Lately I've been thinking of generating some scenarios that have complex chain blocks in the Standby Phase and End Phase.

So far all I've come up with is one interesting complex chain block in the End Phase.

Player A: 2300 Life Points
Player B: 200 Life Points

Player Fields:
Player A has a face up Ectoplasmer and Two-Man Cell Battle with a face up Dark Necrofear and Twin-Headed Behemoth in attack position. Player A has Gemini Elf in hand.

Player B has a face up Cyber Dragon, Treeborn Frog, and Spirit Reaper in defense position with a face down Mirror Force.

Actual Scenario:
Player A attacks Cyber Dragon with Dark Necrofear. Player B responds with Mirror Force. All of Player A's face up attack positioned monsters are destroyed. Player A moves to his End Phase. Dark Necrofear, Twin-Headed Behemoth, and Two-Man Cell Battle activate all at the same time.

Player A decides to make the Chain Link order this.

Link 1: Dark Necrofear
Link 2: Twin-Headed Behemoth
Link 3: Two-Man Cell Battle

Two-Man Cell Battle resolves and Special Summons Gemini Elf. When Dark Necrofear activates and resolves, it targets Spirit Reaper. At this point Spirit Reaper and Ectoplasmer activate at the same time. Player A controls both effects. Player A decides to resolve the chain block in this order.

Link 1: Spirit Reaper
Link 2: Ectoplasmer

Since both effects are continuous, they aren't being chained to one another. Player A is the Turn Player and can decide which effect is placed on the Chain Block first.

Question:
Did I resolve this scenario correctly or am I missing something?
 
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One thing to remember, which was a recent revelation to me, is that the Standby and End Phases are still "open" phases in which you can resolve effects, begin chains and the like. We typically see this as a very short phase given the fact that there aren't that many cards you can use during them and you're typically just paying costs or resolving lingering effects, but there is plenty of stuff to do in this phase. Similarly, all of the effects that need resolving don't all throw themselves on a chain immediately and push you out of the phase.

When you see that this phase is a little more open circumstances it helps you understand what can and does go on. At least it did so for me 8^D
 
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Absolutely true. But remember that you can't just go activating/resolving effects willy nilly. You must have Priority to do so. And that's what's being questioned now. How does Priority pass back and forth during the Standby and/or End Phase.
 
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Priority will pass back and forth like I mentioned. Player A chooses to resolve Change of Heart and returns Player B's monster, now there is a response chain where Player B has Priority to respond to the monster having been returned to his side of the field. If he does not wish to start a response chain he passes Priority back to Player A who can himself begin a response chain or if he chooses not to he may choose another of his effects to resolve in the End Phase, or he may pass Priority to resolve one of his effects and allow Player B to resolve one of their own, Player B may likewise pass Priority to activate an effect back to Player A who now "must" choose and resolve one of his own effects.

Priority does get involved. But the impetus to choose to resolve an outstanding effect does not belong to the Non-Turn Player until all of the Turn Player's own effects have been resolved.

As an example: Player A has Wicked Worm Beast on his side of the field, and Strike Ninja removed from play via his effect. Player B has a Dark Necrofear in the graveyard that was destroyed by Player A's Fissure. Player A enters his End Phase and wishes to pass the opportunity to resolve an outstanding effect to Player B. Player B does not want to take possession of Wicked Worm Beast for obvious reasons so he passes back to Player A. Player A must now resolve one of his effects so he resolves Wicked Worm Beast. Now here is where it gets technical. In your suggested scenario it would now pass Priority to resolve an outstanding effect to Player B, Player B could pass to Player A who does not wish to lose his Strike Ninja so he would pass back to Player B who would now be required to resolve Dark Necrofear who having no available monster to target would be out of luck. However that does not occur. Player A is still the one who is required to choose an outstanding effect to resolve so he again attempts to pass to Player B who again passes back to Player A who now must bring back his Strike Ninja. Only now that Player A has no further outstanding effects to resolve does it become mandatory for Player B to resolve one of his own effects and he now chooses to target Strike Ninja with Dark Necrofear.
 
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Um, since the return of the monster to the other side of the field has no Spell Speed, wouldn't the Turn Player have priority to create a responce chain to the event?
 
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one Anthony.

When determining who 'gains' or retains Priority after an effect resolves, Upperdeck has already made it clear that the opponent of the controller of the last effect to resolve will be the one that gets priority to activate/resolve an effect. Danker has already confirmed this is what's being passed around the Level 3 List as 'the way it is'.

Your explanation does not follow this 'rule'. Your explanation is saying the Turn Player will retain Priority after every effect resolution, which does not keep the game 'fair' as the opponent can just keep passing in order to force the Turn Player to resolve all of their effects first, w/o fear of any repercussion.

When Priority is automatically passed to the opponent of the controller of the last effect to resolve, it keeps the game 'fair' as it potentially puts an equal amount of 'forced' decision between players.

At least that's how I see that particular part of Priority.
 
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Skey, how about this scenario? I'm not sure if I resolved everything correctly or not. <shrugs> I just want to see if I'm getting a good grasp of understanding about these game mechanics that I've never really thought about before.

Note: I used Pole Position only because Digital Jedi basically requested it. @_@

Player A has a face up Pole Position and Jam Breeding Machine on the field with a face down Spell Purification. He also has a Lava Golem in defense position, and Blast Juggler in defense with Dark Necrofear that destroyed Player B's Steel Scorpion and this will be the second End Phase for Steel Scorpion's effect and Sangan in attack position that has Adhesive Explosive equipped to Sangan. Player A also has a Dark Zebra removed from play via Dimensionhole's effect. Player A has a hand that contains: Last Will, Marie the Fallen One, and Emergancy Provisions.

Player B has a face up Stumbling and Adhesive Explosive equipped to Player A's Sangan on the field with a face down Enemy Controller. He also has one Ojama Trio in defense position with a Blue-Eyes White Dragon, Ancient Gear Golem, Dark Zebra removed from play via Interdimensional Matter Transporter, and Aqua Spirit in attack position.

Player A is the Turn Player.

Player A draws and then enters his Standby Phase. Player A activates Jam Breeding Machine's effect. No additional chain links are added and Jam Breeding Machine's effect resolves with a Slime Token being Special Summoned in attack position. Stumbling activates immediately after the Slime Token was summoned and no additional chain links are added. Stumbling resolves without effect and the Slime Token remains in attack position. Player A auto-retains Priority because he's the opponent of the controller of the last effect to resolve in that chain block. Player A activates Blast Juggler and no additional chain links are added to the chain block. Blast Juggler resolves and destroys the Slime Token and Ojama Token. Player B loses 300 Life Points. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B activates Aqua Spirit's effect, which targets Sangan, and no additional chain links are added to the chain block. Aqua Spirit resolves and Sangan is changed to defense position. Priority auto-passes to Player A. Player A activates Lava Golem's effect and no additional chain links are added to the chain block. Lava Golem resolves and Player A loses 1000 Life Points. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B activates Enemy Controller and uses the second effect, which tributes Aqua Spirit, to take control of Dark Necrofear. No additional chain links are added to the chain block and it resolves -- Player B takes control of Player A's Dark Necrofear. Priority auto-passes to Player A. Player A activates his face down Spell Purification and discards Marie the Fallen One. Player B doesn't wish to chain any cards to Spell Purification. Player A chains Emergancy Provisions and sends Pole Position, Jam Breeding Machine, and Spell Purification to the Graveyard to gain 3000 Life Points. Player B doesn't wish to chain any cards to Emergancy Provisions. The chain block resolves. Emergancy Provisions resolves and Player A gains 3000 Life Points and then Spell Purification resolves and destroys all face up Continuous Spell cards on the field. Jam Breeding Machine and Stumbling are destroyed. Pole Position resolves immediately after the chain block resolves and all the monster(s) with the highest attack are destroyed. Lava Golem, Ancient Gear Golem, and Blue-Eyes White Dragon are each destroyed by the effect of Pole Position. Player A auto-retains Priority because he's the opponent of controller of Pole Position's effect that just resolved. Player A activates Marie the Fallen One's effect and no additional chain links are added to the chain block. Player A gains 200 Life Points. Priority is auto-passed to Player B. Player B resolves the effect of Steel Scorpion and Dark Necrofear is destroyed. Priority auto-passes to Player A. Player A resolves the effect of Dimensionhole and places Dark Zebra back on the field in its original position it had before it was removed from play. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves the effect of Adhesive Explosive and destroys Sangan. Player A searches his Deck for Karate Man and adds it to his hand. Player A has the last outstanding effect and resolves Dark Zebra. Dark Zebra changes to defense position.

Player A enters his Main Phase 1. Player A activates Last Will and decides to immediately resolve the effect and Special Summon The Wicked Worm Beast in attack position. Player A Normal Summons Karate Man and activates his effect. The Wicked Worm Beast and Karate Man attack Player B successfully and moves to his End Phase to end his turn.

Player A resolves the effect of Karate Man. Karate Man is destroyed via its own effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B passes Priority to Player A. Player A passes Priority back to Player B. Player B must resolve Interdimensional Matter Transporter. Dark Zebra is placed on the field in its original position. Priority auto-passes to Player A. Player A controls the rest of the outstanding effects. Player A resolves The Wicked Worm Beast and returns it to his hand and then activates Dark Necrofear's effect and targets Player B's Dark Zebra. Player A gains control of Player B's Dark Zebra.

End of Turn.
 
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Well its more my opinion than anything else (somewhat supported by Dan's statements and stuff in the past). Priority itself is the right to activate first, and in this case an effect has already been activated. After the first activation it is simply regular chaining and passing, not priority passing.

But for arguements sake (cause we've gone over this too much), lets just say that DJ's statement is 100% correct (which technically i was agreeing with anyway).

The priority discussion really makes my head hurt.
 
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Ok, I know I'm late on this, I apologize, but.....

2 things.

1. Player A should not have been able to activate the effect of "Jam Breeding Machine" during his Standby Phase. Player A already had 4 monsters on the field, plus 1 removed by "Dimensionhole". The monster zone for that monster cannot be used while that monster is Removed from Play.


2. Even if they had been able to, why wasn't the "Slime Token" changed to Defense Position by "Stumbling"s effect? The "Slime Token" isn't affected by "Pole Position", so it should have been changed to Defense.
 
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Continuous Spell/Trap cards that activate and are destroyed in mid-chain will never resolve because they require to remain face up on the field in order to resolve their effects. Thus, their effects disappear. This includes Continuous Spell/Trap cards that activate while face up on the field -- such as Stumbling, Jam Breeding Machine, and Ectoplasmer.

I resolved the situation incorrectly from the very beginning. I should have started things out with Blast Juggler, then would have resolved a lot differently from that point. <shrugs> I must have got real confused when I typed it up. I thought I used Blast Juggler first. Oh well, can't win 'em all.

8^P
 
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Ok, but that makes no sense with what I stated with the "Slime Token". "Stumbling" was never destroyed, or even attempted to be destroyed. So why didnt' the "Slime Token" change to defense position is all I was pointing out...lol.
 
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Here's a fun one for you TK...

P2 has a face-down Serpentine Princess, a face-down Nightmare Penguin, face-up defense position Morphing Jar #2, and a face-down Jowls of Dark Demise in their Monster Zone, as well as a Set Monster Recovery, a face-up Spring of Rebirth, Stumbling, and a Set Book of Moon, with A Legendary Ocean and Bitelon in Hand. The only Level 3 remaining in P2's Deck is Sangan.

P1 has Swords of Revealing Light, Zaborg the Thunder Monarch, and Snatch Steal in hand, and one face-down Magician of Faith on the field.


P1 is the turn player, and plays Swords of Revealing Light.

P2 responds to Swords of Revealing Light by chaining Book of Moon and targets Morphing Jar #2.

Resolve so that P1 sends no cards back to Deck. Snatch Steal and Monster Recovery must also be used as well.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Here's a fun one for you TK...

P2 has a face-down Serpentine Princess, a face-down Nightmare Penguin, face-up defense position Morphing Jar #2, and a face-down Jowls of Dark Demise in their Monster Zone, as well as a Set Monster Recovery, a face-up Spring of Rebirth, Stumbling, and a Set Book of Moon, with A Legendary Ocean and Bitelon in Hand. The only Level 3 remaining in P2's Deck is Sangan.

P1 has Swords of Revealing Light, Zaborg the Thunder Monarch, and Snatch Steal in hand, and one face-down Magician of Faith on the field.


P1 is the turn player, and plays Swords of Revealing Light.

P2 responds to Swords of Revealing Light by chaining Book of Moon and targets Morphing Jar #2.

Resolve so that P1 sends no cards back to Deck. Snatch Steal and Monster Recovery must also be used as well.
Click to expand...
Hmm, ok...thanks for helping me out masterwoo0. =)

First a Chain Block must resolve.

Link 1: Swords of Revealing Light
Link 2: Book of Moon

Book of Moon resolves successfully and switches Morphing Jar #2 to face down defense position. Swords of Revealing Light resolves. All of P2's face down monsters are flipped face up by P1's Swords of Revealing Light. P2's Flip Effect monsters create a SEGOC scenario and P2 gets to decide which effect is placed as what chain link. P2 selects Jowls of Dark Demise as Link 1, Morphing Jar #2 as Link 2, and Nightmare Penguin as Link 3. P2 passes Priority to P1 for his/her chance to chain to Nightmare Penguin's effect. P1 passes Priority back to P2 who chains Monster Recovery and selects the face up Serpentine Princess as his target. P2 passes Priority to P1. P1 passes Priority back to P2 since he/she has nothing to add to the chain block. P2 passes Priority back to P1 since he/she has nothing to add to the chain block.

So resolve the chain block.

Link 1: Jowls of Dark Demise
Link 2: Morphing Jar #2
Link 3: Nightmare Penguin
Link 4: Monster Recovery

P2's Monster Recovery resolves and returns the face up Serpentine Princess to the deck. P2 shuffles his/her hand into his/her deck with Serpentine Princess and draws two cards. Nightmare Penguin activates and P2 targets P1's face down Magician of Faith. Nightmare Penguin resolves and P1's face down Magician of Faith returns to his hand. Spring of Rebirth increases P2's Life Points by 500 points. Morphing Jar #2 activates and resolves. P2 returns Morphing Jar #2, Jowls of Dark Demise, and Nightmare Penguin to his/her deck and picks up three monsters. P2 Special Summons all three monsters face down in defense position. Jowls of Dark Demise has nothing to target and resolves without effect.

Now that the chain block has resolved, Serpentine Princess activates and forms another chain block. P1 passes Priority to P2 because he/she has nothing to chain to the effect. P2 resolves the effect and searchs through his deck for Sangan and Special Summons it in Attack Position. Chain block has resolved. However, Stumbling now activates and forms another chain block. P1 passes Priority to P2 because he/she has nothing to chain to the effect. P2 passes Priority back to P1 because he/she has nothing to chain to the effect. Chain block resolves and Sangan is changed to Defense Position.

P1 now activates Snatch Steal and targets P2's face up Defense Position Sangan. Chain block is formed. Neither play has any cards to chain to Snatch Steal -- so it resolves. Sangan switches over to P1's side of the field at this point and he uses Sangan as a Tribute for Zaborg the Thunder Monarch's Tribute Summoning. P1 activates Zaborg the Thunder Monarch, however, P2's Stumbling and Sangan activate as well. Thus a SEGOC scenario occurs again. Stumbling and Sangan are mandatory and Zaborg the Thunder Monarch is Optional. Which concludes that Stumbling is Link 1, Sangan is Link 2, and Zaborg the Thunder Monarch is Link 3.

So you resolve the chain block.

Link 1: Stumbling
Link 2: Sangan
Link 3: Zaborg the Thunder Monarch

Zaborg the Thunder Monarch resolves with P1 targetting and destroying P2's middle face down monster. Sangan resolves and P2 searchs his/her deck for Serpentine Princess and adds it to his/her deck. Stumbling resolves and Zaborg the Thunder Monarch is switched to Defense Position.

-----------------------------------------

Whew, that one I feel like I got wrong. t_t
 
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Tkwiget said:
You said Snatch Steal and Monster Recovery must also be used to resolve the scenario. =/

Do you have another one that can pick at my brain?
Click to expand...
Yeah, P1 tries to activate Snatch Steal, targeting Sangan, and P2 responds by chaining Monster Recovery to return Sangan to the Deck, so both cards were used. Just one was more successful than the other. ;)
 
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