BTH being activated after TP announces he wants to proceed to BP

D

Dr Sin

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Scenario: NTP has a f/d BTH and a set monster. He has activated Confiscation and knows that his opponent has only one Mobius in hand now.
TP draws a Cyber Dragon. He enters his MP1, special summons his CD and passes his opportunity to respond. NTP doesn't activates BTH, betting TP will summon Mobius, and then he will respond with BTH, making his opponent lose 2 cards for his one.
But then TP decides to proceed to BP, announcing it to NTP. NTP realizes his plan has failed, but he wants to maintain his f/d monster (a Skelengel, Dekoichi, MoF for example) and thinks: "wait a minute, the last event was still a summon and we are still in MP1" and activates BTH now.
1) Would this be a legal move?
2) And in fact, if this situation happens (a card being activated in a non-responsive window before the end of a MP1 after TP announced his intend to proceed to BP) would TP return to a point in his MP1 in which he could still perform a summon, or at this point he could only activate SS 2 effects?

I'm basing this situation on the below example, John Danker provided in another thread, for Battle step:

"This, however, would be legal...

P1 Declares attack w/ Gemini Elf and passes priority.
P2 Does not wish to respond at this time.
P1 Announces they wish to move into damage step.
P2 Activates Sakuretsu Armor* / BOM"

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.16798&page=6&pp=15

* "action connected card" being activated after both passing.

So, did you understand the point? And what do you think?
 
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In all honesty....there is nothing written to confirm what is the right and wrong ruling here. The actual rulings on BTH / Torrential Tribute would suggest that this is possible, however, recent verbal communications by some at UDE would suggest that after the intitial opportunity to respond (TP passes priority, NTP passes priority) the timing for the response to the summon is past.

Do I have anything official in writing either way....nope! At this point you'd be safest asking the judge at whatever tournament you're at how they will rule it that given day.
 
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I would say the NTP missed his or her opportunity to respond to the summoning. All things being perfect the TP would have asked "do you have a response to my summon" and when the NTP stated "no", hoping to activate Bottomless Trap Hole in response to Mobius, the TP could annouce entering the battle phase and NTP would not be able to activate BTH as her/she had already stated they did not want to respond to the summon.

Since we don't often play or judge in the perfect world, I would say it is a judgement call by the floor judge and then probably the head judge.

I do not believe there is any ruling that directly addresses this, and many judge may rule it differently then I would.
 
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Thank you for the replies. It's just as I thought.

And thanks specially to you John, and sorry to bother with this kind of question again...

Oh, and about the 2nd question? When TP declares he wants to move to BP and NTP says: "wait... still in your MP1 I activate Waboku or TR". Can TP return to a point in his MP1 in which he can still perform a summon? Or he can now only activate SS 2 effects?

Thanks in advance
 
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The turn cannot advance until both players agree. However, if a player chooses to activate a Trap before agreeing to advance, it doesn't rewind play. It just stalls long enough for the Trap activation(s) and resolution(s). The turn player can only activate cards in a chain to the cards being activated by the opponent.
 
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I would say that given the fact that the turn player would choose to end the Main Phase 1 and proceed to Battle Phase, at this point in time, they are ONLY in the window for activating Spell Speed 2 or higher card effects.
 
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I thought that if the non-turn player chose to respond to the ending of a Phase, the "ending" part of it is forgotten, whatever link has been created is resolved, and the same phase continues as normal until the turn player once again chooses to end it.
 
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John Danker said:
In all honesty....there is nothing written to confirm what is the right and wrong ruling here. The actual rulings on BTH / Torrential Tribute would suggest that this is possible, however, recent verbal communications by some at UDE would suggest that after the intitial opportunity to respond (TP passes priority, NTP passes priority) the timing for the response to the summon is past.
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You see the backpeddling here John?

Absolutely nothing agains't you at all, i know you are just following the rules.

This is exactly the scenario that makes it obvious that the "last fact" timing lingering until another "fact" ocurrs is erroneous and only causes headaches.

When the dust clears it will be simple:

When an event occurs a response timing is triggered. Both players have an opportunity to pass or activate. If both players pass, the timing is over.

That is how it has always been in Yu-Gi-Oh! and it is the only method that makes sense in a event-response game environment.
 
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I personally would treat such issues simply with a couple of statements, using the above situation.

TP: I special summon Cyber Dragon from my hand, do you wish to respond?
NTP: No I do not (since I expect you to tribute it for Mobius)
TP: Okay, we both pass on our use of Priority, I will now proceed with entering my Battle Phase, since use of any cards such as BTH has had their timing opportunity missed, so if you chose to not use it then, well hard luck for you.
 
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SPK said:
I personally would treat such issues simply with a couple of statements, using the above situation.

TP: I special summon Cyber Dragon from my hand, do you wish to respond?
NTP: No I do not (since I expect you to tribute it for Mobius)
TP: Okay, we both pass on our use of Priority, I will now proceed with entering my Battle Phase, since use of any cards such as BTH has had their timing opportunity missed, so if you chose to not use it then, well hard luck for you.
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That's pretty much it.

The only addition would be both players agreeing to end the Phase, that being like you said, the TP announcing the end of the Main Phase, and the OP agreeing (or passing in technical terms).

You then enter the Battle Phase.

A major part of YGO's mechanics is playing the right card at the right time, there is definately an element of risk and surprise.... it's part of what makes it fun. Allowing timing to be passed on, and then having it linger really takes away from that.
 
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From my understanding, and i know its not just something as easy to get as this but...

when a creature is played, it supposedly doesnt use the chain. and while this is okay i mean its konami's game, why would they make cards that negate the summon? especially a card that can use the chain and can be chained too if need be?

becuase it infact at some point would have to use the chain.

but in yugi chains resolve as one shot pointers, so once they resolved the game goes back to a, "I'm waiting for something to happend, there is nothing happening, when will something happen" and so on and so forth.

so here is the situation, a succesfull summon has happend, and any cards with the requirement can now activate. But if both players choose not to use any, then its over and done with.

While its not in writing cause the game is more like in Testplay mode or something. The game oviously would follow these rules, becuase everything, well mostly everything is based on events. Once the event is over, its done with.

---- This is Irrelevant to the answer ----
 
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SPK brings up a good point...did the TP ask the NTP if he had a response to Cyber Dragon being summoned?

If he didn't, I'd have to side with the NTP here, since it would seem to me that the TP jumped the gun on going to his Battle Phase. In that case, I would have let the BTH go off.

If he DID ask, though, then the NTP passed up his window of opportunity.

Of course, I'm not a judge, so I can't say my $0.02 holds any weight.
 
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novastar said:
You see the backpeddling here John?

Absolutely nothing agains't you at all, i know you are just following the rules.

This is exactly the scenario that makes it obvious that the "last fact" timing lingering until another "fact" ocurrs is erroneous and only causes headaches.

When the dust clears it will be simple:

When an event occurs a response timing is triggered. Both players have an opportunity to pass or activate. If both players pass, the timing is over.

That is how it has always been in Yu-Gi-Oh! and it is the only method that makes sense in a event-response game environment.
Click to expand...

I'll admit doubt has been put into my mind. The problem is that what I was orginally told by Kevin Tewart about such a scenario and what my sources tell me has been verbally relayed otherwise as of late from the same source are direct opposite rulings. This is why I said that at this point there is no written rulings addressing this scenario and that while the card rulings point the direction of my orginal stance....others may differ.

I don't buy the, "This is how it has always been in Yugioh" statement though. What people assume doesn't make it the correct ruling. I remember a time not so long ago when "The way it has always been in Yugioh" was stated about "monster priority" as well.

As always I only relay what I've been told by those higher ups than myself, otherwise I state it as an opinion or theory. In this case I've been told one thing and am now "hearing" something else....though again, what I'm "hearing" is second hand.

I've sent this quesiton in multiple times to the judge's list with no response over a period of over a year. What that tells me is that they're afraid to make a statement in error, Konami has approved a stance, or they simply don't know for sure themselves.
 
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I'm on the group that believes that only one opportunity to respond to an event (a response window) is enough and there should be no exception and it simplifies the game and makes sense. Oh and it's coherent too. But it's YGO right? Sometimes the rules of the game doesn't follow logic...

But about the question regarding TP wish to proceed to a certain phase, this is a difficult situation too. It's really hard to "swallow" that only SS 2 or higher effects can be activated, because this is not the general rule for MP1. If it's true, then it's like they are in a window between this 2 phases, which is very strange at least.
 
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If turn player wishes to advance to the battle phase and non TP activates a S/T....I see absolutely no reason why, after the resolution of the non-TP S/T the turn player could not carry on the MP1 with a summon / set, activating a spell speed 1 spell card, or any other normal action associated with what can be done in MP1. What would give us reason to believe otherwise?
 
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We've been round this one before, but just to recap, the way the majority of us agree (I think) is:

TP's non-chain action takes place--Summon, entry to new phase, etc. (now, for what I'm about to say, don't yell at me, just wait for it). This IS his priority (don't freak, let me explain). NTP has immediate opportunity to negate it--spell speed 3 only (HIS priority and ONLY possible response, as he cannot chain). Should he opt to do so, TP may chain to it--spell speed 3, etc.

Should he opt NOT to negate the action (pass on his priority <boy, am I asking for it using these terms>, the action is considered COMPLETE and AUTOMATICALLY moves on to TP's priority to respond to the completed action, which is HIS priority--> spell speed 2 S/T, or Monster effect; and begins a chain, to which, NTP can chiain. If TP passes on Priority, it goes to NTP. If he passes, then TP can move to the next phase or action. Now for the clarification, classification and possible conflagration:

This (moving on to the next phase/action) is most clearly seen in the Main Phase, wherein, once both TP and NTP have passed on a response to a summon, TP can activate a spell speed 1 card. At this point it is obvious that both players have moved on from "response to a summon" to something else. What gets confusing is when something not as obvious takes place, such as trying to exit the phase, or activating a "1st priority effect" (that is spell speed 2 or Monster effect), But why is it/should it be that ONLY a spell speed 1 effect has the power to move us CLEARLY beyond the summon-response time.

I believe (as do most of you, I would say) That once TP and NTP agree to pass, it should then be completely up to the TP to deside whether the next card played (in the event of Spell Speed 2, or Monster effect card) is in response to the sumon or completely seperate. I do NOT think it should be (on the one hand) left up to the NTP (to decide now to chain in response to the summon, after passing), or (on the other hand) automatically assumed that because both have passed, it is too late for even the TP to respond to his own summon. The TP SHOULD be allow to declare--"Now that we have both passed on the response to the summon, I would like to activate a Spell Speed two card (or whatever), that is totally NOT in response to the summon, but is in itself a new action within the main phase. Do we both agree that the summon-response window is closed?" Or something to that effect.

**Now I know, the way that I used the term priority in the second paragraph is cause for an uproar, but if you read carefully I think you understand what I am trying to say, but lacking better terms. Unfortunately, I don't see the game even attempting such clarity.
 
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John Danker said:
If turn player wishes to advance to the battle phase and non TP activates a S/T....I see absolutely no reason why, after the resolution of the non-TP S/T the turn player could not carry on the MP1 with a summon / set, activating a spell speed 1 spell card, or any other normal action associated with what can be done in MP1. What would give us reason to believe otherwise?
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The same doubt that says you can still respond to a summon after both players have passed priority.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
The same doubt that says you can still respond to a summon after both players have passed priority.
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Have both players agreed to move to the next phase? No, plain and simple. Non-turn player activated a S/T card, it resolves. We're still in MP1 without an agreement to move to the next phase, therefore, we start the process over again, TP either takes an action, passes priority, or declares they wish to move to the next phase.
 
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Maruno said:
I thought that if the non-turn player chose to respond to the ending of a Phase, the "ending" part of it is forgotten, whatever link has been created is resolved, and the same phase continues as normal until the turn player once again chooses to end it.
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John Danker said:
Have both players agreed to move to the next phase? No, plain and simple. Non-turn player activated a S/T card, it resolves. We're still in MP1 without an agreement to move to the next phase, therefore, we start the process over again, TP either takes an action, passes priority, or declares they wish to move to the next phase.
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Sorry, I can't help but cough here.
 
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