BTH being activated after TP announces he wants to proceed to BP

[Dr Sin]

Scenario: NTP has a f/d BTH and a set monster. He has activated Confiscation and knows that his opponent has only one Mobius in hand now.
TP draws a Cyber Dragon. He enters his MP1, special summons his CD and passes his opportunity to respond. NTP doesn't activates BTH, betting TP will summon Mobius, and then he will respond with BTH, making his opponent lose 2 cards for his one.
But then TP decides to proceed to BP, announcing it to NTP. NTP realizes his plan has failed, but he wants to maintain his f/d monster (a Skelengel, Dekoichi, MoF for example) and thinks: "wait a minute, the last event was still a summon and we are still in MP1" and activates BTH now.
1) Would this be a legal move?
2) And in fact, if this situation happens (a card being activated in a non-responsive window before the end of a MP1 after TP announced his intend to proceed to BP) would TP return to a point in his MP1 in which he could still perform a summon, or at this point he could only activate SS 2 effects?

I'm basing this situation on the below example, John Danker provided in another thread, for Battle step:

"This, however, would be legal...

P1 Declares attack w/ Gemini Elf and passes priority.
P2 Does not wish to respond at this time.
P1 Announces they wish to move into damage step.
P2 Activates Sakuretsu Armor* / BOM"

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.16798&page=6&pp=15

* "action connected card" being activated after both passing.

So, did you understand the point? And what do you think?

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

If the opponent activates an effect to prevent the closure of the Phase, it should be that only a response to that effect be allowed, instead of, "After you respond, now I am going to Summon a Monster!"

Again, I know that no one agrees with that stance, but it simplifies things greatly, and I dont understand why it "can't" be like that. There is no hard and fast rule saying either way. Only inuendo and unclear references. Even the way Priority was supposed to indicate how "Pass-Pass" was supposed to work is crumbling. So how sure is it that it wont change to include something similar to what I am suggesting?

As soon as it something happens there are new possibilities. For example if the opponent increased his/her lifepoints above 3000 "before the turn player ended his phase" the turn player might now want to activate Meteor of Destruction

Or player B has 1500 LP and a card face-down. Player A summons Pitch-Black Warwolf (opponent can't activate trap cards in the battle phase) thinking s/he could win the game, and passes priority to the opponent. Player B passes priority back. Player A announces s/he wishes to enter the main phase, Player B activates the set call of the Haunted. Now why should Player A not be able to use a normal spell card to destroy the monster and allow Warwolf to win the game? Or why should player A be unable to special summon another monster?

 

[Kyhotae]

Again, I know that no one agrees with that stance, but it simplifies things greatly, and I dont understand why it "can't" be like that.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, Konami/UDE does not. :-(

In answer to your question, BluGlasses, it's because the turn player said he was done. That's usually why people activate effects. To get something in there that the turn player wasn't expecting so what he was doing gets fouled up. If the turn player wishes to respond to the new situation, he has his Main Phase 2 and then next turn to address it.

While not proof of what should be done, the video games say "Its the end of the Main/Standby/Draw Phase. Do you want to activate an effect?" when it's not your turn. If you activate something, the computer doesn't rewind and start activating Spell Cards again, it just moves on to the next phase and deals with the new situation.

 

[masterwoo0]

As soon as it something happens there are new possibilities. For example if the opponent increased his/her lifepoints above 3000 "before the turn player ended his phase" the turn player might now want to activate Meteor of Destruction

Or player B has 1500 LP and a card face-down. Player A summons Pitch-Black Warwolf (opponent can't activate trap cards in the battle phase) thinking s/he could win the game, and passes priority to the opponent. Player B passes priority back. Player A announces s/he wishes to enter the main phase, Player B activates the set call of the Haunted. Now why should Player A not be able to use a normal spell card to destroy the monster and allow Warwolf to win the game? Or why should player A be unable to special summon another monster?

Basically, you could keep trying to manipulate the situation until you get your opponent to "flinch". But, if its Main Phase 1, that's why you have a Main Phase 2 to take care of the things you didnt get to in MP1.

I see this being abused and possibly used as a Stall Tactic. Your opponent could easily say that they dont want to use an effect and then later say that they intend to do so, just to burn up time, and they can do it on every Phase Change.

When does it stop? What is the enforceable penalty, and how do you actually enforce it when the player says that they just dont want to activate the effect anymore. If you make the intent, just that, then there is no "take back" or "flip-flop", just like if you make the intent to End Phase, that should be a Declaration, just like everything else. If you start a chain from the Declaration, once its complete, the Phase ends.

 

[Kyhotae]

And this is the part where i have an issue. After a double pass, if I activate a SS1 Spell card, it is obvious that it cannot be in response to the summon, as I cannot do that. How is it that my opponent can now chain to my SS1 Spell card in response to my summon? That just semms SOO wrong!

Why do people keep asking this? This as already been addressed. If both players have passed on activating effects after a Summon, and then the turn player activates a Spell Speed 1 effect, the opponent CANNOT chain a card in response to the Summon to it. The activation of a Spell Speed 1 effect is PROOF POSITIVE that the response window has closed. Only if the turn player pretends to pass and then activates a monster effect or Spell Speed 2 effect can the opponent chain a card in response to the Summon, because those are the only effect types that can be activated during the response window.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

I agree with you. Unfortunately, Konami/UDE does not. :-(

In answer to your question, BluGlasses, it's because the turn player said he was done. That's usually why people activate effects. To get something in there that the turn player wasn't expecting so what he was doing gets fouled up. If the turn player wishes to respond to the new situation, he has his Main Phase 2 and then next turn to address it.

How was s/he done, s/he has not yet addressed the situation with the new monster on the field?

How about a more obvious scenario:

Player A announces that he wishes to end his standby phase.
Player B activates a trap card sending player A's Marie the Fallen one to the Graveyard.

Now does the phase end? Of course not, there's a new situation that needs to be addressed. Player A needs to gain 200 Lifepoints.

Occam's razor tells us never to make more rules than we need to, no more "if's" than necessary: we know that there is a reason to continue a phase in a situation where one had already wanted to end it. (keeping in mind that a standby effect is not something that would be resolved in the "response window")

 

[HorusMaster]

As soon as it something happens there are new possibilities. For example if the opponent increased his/her lifepoints above 3000 "before the turn player ended his phase" the turn player might now want to activate Meteor of Destruction

Or player B has 1500 LP and a card face-down. Player A summons Pitch-Black Warwolf (opponent can't activate trap cards in the battle phase) thinking s/he could win the game, and passes priority to the opponent. Player B passes priority back. Player A announces s/he wishes to enter the main phase, Player B activates the set call of the Haunted. Now why should Player A not be able to use a normal spell card to destroy the monster and allow Warwolf to win the game? Or why should player A be unable to special summon another monster?

Bottom line is the game should ALWAYS be a matter of respect and fair play. If Player A activates Call of the Haunted after passing priority on the summon of Pitch-Black Warwolf AND the turn player stating he WISHES to enter the Main Phase, then the opponent is OBVIOUSLY stating, NOPE! not ready to enter the main phase and as such, the turn player still has the right to play SS1 cards to destroy Call of the Haunted. If the opponent AGREES to enter the Main Phase and after agreeing, activates Call of the Haunted, then he has missed the timing for activation due to Pitch's effect and the agreement to enter the Main Phase. Any attempt to do so would be UNSPORTSMAN-LIKE CONDUCT as should be deemed an illegal move.

 

[masterwoo0]

Bottom line is the game should ALWAYS be a matter of respect and fair play. If Player A activates Call of the Haunted after passing priority on the summon of Pitch-Black Warwolf AND the turn player stating he WISHES to enter the Main Phase, then the opponent is OBVIOUSLY stating, NOPE! not ready to enter the main phase and as such, the turn player still has the right to play SS1 cards to destroy Call of the Haunted. If the opponent AGREES to enter the Main Phase and after agreeing, activates Call of the Haunted, then he has missed the timing for activation due to Pitch's effect and the agreement to enter the Main Phase. Any attempt to do so would be UNSPORTSMAN-LIKE CONDUCT as should be deemed an illegal move.

Im a little confused here... Aren't they already in Main Phase? The opponent wouldnt be able to activate Meteor of Destruction if they weren't.

Also, making the play a "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is just a little bit excessive, dont you think?

 

[HorusMaster]

Im a little confused here... Aren't they already in Main Phase? The opponent wouldnt be able to activate Meteor of Destruction if they weren't.

Also, making the play a "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is just a little bit excessive, dont you think?

Read the post again....Meteor of Destruction was the first part of the post and seperate from the second part where he started with "or if Player B only had 1500 LP and a card face-down"...and I don't think Unsportsman-like conduct is too excessive if the
player(s) don't respect the rules and conduct of the game.

 

[masterwoo0]

Read the post again....Meteor of Destruction was the first part of the post and seperate from the second part where he started with "or if Player B only had 1500 LP and a card face-down"...and I don't think Unsportsman-like conduct is too excessive if the
player(s) don't respect the rules and conduct of the game.

Im still not understanding where you are going with this. In order to summon Pitch-Black Warwolf, it has to be done in a Main Phase.

In order to activate Meteor of Destruction, it has to be done in a Main Phase.

YOU are saying that if the Opponent wishes to "ENTER" the Main Phase of the turn, and the opponent activates a card...

That's what I dont understand. How can the Turn Player request to enter a Phase he obviously is already in???

 

[HorusMaster]

Im still not understanding where you are going with this. In order to summon Pitch-Black Warwolf, it has to be done in a Main Phase.

In order to activate Meteor of Destruction, it has to be done in a Main Phase.

YOU are saying that if the Opponent wishes to "ENTER" the Main Phase of the turn, and the opponent activates a card...

That's what I dont understand. How can the Turn Player request to enter a Phase he obviously is already in???

My mistake...I'm following what the post stated...should have written wishes to enter the BATTLE PHASE>>>