BTH being activated after TP announces he wants to proceed to BP

D

Dr Sin

New Member
Scenario: NTP has a f/d BTH and a set monster. He has activated Confiscation and knows that his opponent has only one Mobius in hand now.
TP draws a Cyber Dragon. He enters his MP1, special summons his CD and passes his opportunity to respond. NTP doesn't activates BTH, betting TP will summon Mobius, and then he will respond with BTH, making his opponent lose 2 cards for his one.
But then TP decides to proceed to BP, announcing it to NTP. NTP realizes his plan has failed, but he wants to maintain his f/d monster (a Skelengel, Dekoichi, MoF for example) and thinks: "wait a minute, the last event was still a summon and we are still in MP1" and activates BTH now.
1) Would this be a legal move?
2) And in fact, if this situation happens (a card being activated in a non-responsive window before the end of a MP1 after TP announced his intend to proceed to BP) would TP return to a point in his MP1 in which he could still perform a summon, or at this point he could only activate SS 2 effects?

I'm basing this situation on the below example, John Danker provided in another thread, for Battle step:

"This, however, would be legal...

P1 Declares attack w/ Gemini Elf and passes priority.
P2 Does not wish to respond at this time.
P1 Announces they wish to move into damage step.
P2 Activates Sakuretsu Armor* / BOM"

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.16798&page=6&pp=15

* "action connected card" being activated after both passing.

So, did you understand the point? And what do you think?
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
If i want to go from Point A (Say my front door) to Point B (the Grocery Store)

I can put a Point C, halfway between point A and Point B.
Then i can put a point D halfway between point B and Point C.

I can do this forever, And have an ifinite amount of points, yet, I can still make it from point A to Point B by walking, I do it once a week at least.
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The problem is when do reach point B? There has to be some indication of when the end is reached.

YGO, unlike your jaunt to the Grocery Store, leaves it up to the players to decide that... not geography.
 
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Okay, before we swing way too far out here. Many remember when Kevin was telling people they could use Turn Player Priority to activate Pot of Greed. He was then told by Konami that that was not legal it had to be Speed 2 or a Monster Effect to use Turn Player Priority after the summon. Thus we were told that it would not be legal to activate Pot of Greed to begin a response chain.

The problem comes from Kevin's statements that after both players have passed on the opportunity to respond that timing is still appropriate for response timed Traps like Torrential Tribute. This basically means that as long as the next thing that the turn player does is not summon another monster or activate Pot of Greed (or another Speed 1 Spell) the timing will still be correct for using response timed cards in the resulting chain.

Thus if I summon my Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning and choose not to use Turn Player Priority to remove my opponent's monster and pass to my opponent and my opponent also passes (because they have a set Sakuretsu Armor and a set Torrential Tribute and they would rather keep their monsters on the field if they can). Now we have passed the "response chain" point and I could either activate my Pot of Greed or I could decide that I want to activate my BLS's ability and remove a monster (or activate a Quick-Play Spell or a set Trap, etc.) The question is why would Pot of Greed prevent my opponent from activating their Torrential Tribute but activating BLS's effect (or another speed 2) will mean that this is a valid response chain to allow the opponent to activate Torrential Tribute? Is it because Pot of Greed (normal spells) alter the definition of what happened last? Or does Kevin not understand the concept of Response Chain (and for that matter seemed to always be fuzzy on the concept of Priority and Response to begin with)?
 
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novastar said:
Doesn't apply to YGO

Besides, that would relate more to chain building/resolving, rather than passing in a loop infinitely.
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You made a false assumption and I pointed it out:

  • If this "last fact" lingering timing were to be followed strictly in the framework of the rules, you would end up in the timing loop i described every single game, and the game would essentially halt.

I demonstrated how an infinite series does not stop progression.

Just because there is an infinite number of passes allowed does not mean that there is no way to leave that loop.
 
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There's what works, and then there's what we make work. Mechanics and rules are intangible and unmaleable. Only the creator of the intulectual product has the power to change them. But real world play is flexible. It's that flexibility that made it okay to slap a Dark Hole in the middle of the field, even though it isn't supposed to be there and still have it resolve. It's what makes it okay if I forget to deduct the 500 Life Points for a Nightmare Wheel and go back and inflict it in Main Phase 1 withoute an actual rewind. We have to have this fluidity so we can make mistakes right again and learn the game in spite of our mistakes. It's just how games work. But usually, the rules are what make it fluid, by being the unbending riverbed, not the crazy guy in the middle of the water with a detour sign telling everybody the water really isn't flowing the way its flowing, "it's flowing towards the sky."

The current info is just that, Crazy. And we make it work by ignoring it as much as we can without going off course. But never make the mistake that sometimes we ignore whats stated, because its impossible to make every crazy man's fantasy work. We should certainly minimize it as much as we can, but lets not pretend we don't just humor the old man every once in while, just to stay in the water.
 
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"I end Main Phase and go to the Battle Phase."

"OK, at the end of your Main Phase, I'll activate this (insert selected Trap here)."

Why would the Main Phase still continue? The activation is at the end of the phase, as the opponent indicated. Where is it ruled that it would go back and require the turn player to end his Main Phase again?

Also, this loop-talk is nuts. If two players continually passed, they would be charged with stalling and a warning given. Personally, I would charge the turn player with the stall and tell him to make a move or end the phase. You get one chance to pass, then you do something. If it's an attempt to end the Main Phase, a Spell Speed 2 effect, or a Monster effect, the Summon Response window is still open. If it is a Spell Speed 1 Spell Card, then the window is closed. Those are the rules, they're quite clear. As clear as the "no stalling" rule.
 
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Kyhotae said:
"I end Main Phase and go to the Battle Phase."

"OK, at the end of your Main Phase, I'll activate this (insert selected Trap here)."

Why would the Main Phase still continue? The activation is at the end of the phase, as the opponent indicated. Where is it ruled that it would go back and require the turn player to end his Main Phase again?
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You gotta love how we're having two different conversations in this one thread...lol.

The Main Phase will still continue because, upon the resolution of whatever chain/effect was activated, Priority is passed back to the Turn Player. And since something has changed, they have the right to continue in the Main Phase and do something as a result of the effect that was just played, or they can continue on to the next Phase.
 
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Kyhotae said:
Sure, they can chain to the activation, but again I ask, where does it say that they have to re-end the Phase?
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Let's use the scenario given...sorta.

Let's say that P1 (Turn Player) Special Summons "Cyber Dragon", and has "Mirage Dragon" in hand. Both players pass on summon response. P1 states they wish to enter the Battle Phase. P2 declares their intent to activate "Call of the Haunted" to bring back a monster. P1 doesn't respond, P2 doesn't respond. "Call of the Haunted" resolves and the monster is Special Summoned.

P1 can now choose to summon their monster, activate another effect, or declare their intent to move into the Battle Phase again. As you stated before, you can't move to a new Phase until BOTH players agree. Since P2 didn't agree and did something to change the game state, P1 can certainly say they aren't ready to move to the next phase now because of what P2 did. It's now up to BOTH players to agree to move to the next phase again.

Make sense?
 
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Kyhotae said:
Sure, they can chain to the activation, but again I ask, where does it say that they have to re-end the Phase?
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If you are activating a Trap/Quickplay in Main Phase (at the end) then you are still in the Main Phase. The Turn Player says "I would like to end Main Phase 1 and go into Battle Phase. The NTP says "Before you end Main Phase 1 I'll activate ________." Thus you have not left Main Phase 1 because both players did not agree to end the Phase. Now you have the opportunity to add to the chain, let the chain resolve, start a response chain, pass on a response chain, begin a new chain, summon a monster, or suggest that you would again like to end Main Phase 1. Those are the options available because the NTP started a chain instead of agreeing to end the phase. It isn't a slide that the Turn Player jumps on and starts sliding towards the bottom and somewhere before he reaches it you can activate your card and then the Phase is over. That's why.
 
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anthonyj said:
The problem comes from Kevin's statements that after both players have passed on the opportunity to respond that timing is still appropriate for response timed Traps like Torrential Tribute. This basically means that as long as the next thing that the turn player does is not summon another monster or activate Pot of Greed (or another Speed 1 Spell) the timing will still be correct for using response timed cards in the resulting chain.

Thus if I summon my Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning and choose not to use Turn Player Priority to remove my opponent's monster and pass to my opponent and my opponent also passes (because they have a set Sakuretsu Armor and a set Torrential Tribute and they would rather keep their monsters on the field if they can). Now we have passed the "response chain" point and I could either activate my Pot of Greed or I could decide that I want to activate my BLS's ability and remove a monster (or activate a Quick-Play Spell or a set Trap, etc.) The question is why would Pot of Greed prevent my opponent from activating their Torrential Tribute but activating BLS's effect (or another speed 2) will mean that this is a valid response chain to allow the opponent to activate Torrential Tribute? Is it because Pot of Greed (normal spells) alter the definition of what happened last? Or does Kevin not understand the concept of Response Chain (and for that matter seemed to always be fuzzy on the concept of Priority and Response to begin with)?
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I'll agree with this statement 100% (you see I actually can agree with someone!) We actually don't know if we're comparing apples and apples here. As I stated part of the problem is a definition of what a game event (for lack of a better term) or defintion of what a "last thing to resolve" includes is. We have rulings but the terms used in the rulings haven't been defined.

If I said, "Torrential Tribute may only be activated if the last thing to gumfersalb was the summon of a monster." You'd scratch your head because gumfersalb has never been defined. What's all included in gumfersalb? Is gumfersalb referring to only one thing or can it cover a multitude of possible actions? If so what are they?

In truth we don't even know how the terms being used to rule are defined (at least we don't know this from what we've been given by UDE....we all have our justifications in our own minds)
 
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I'll agree with this statement 100% (you see I actually can agree with someone!) We actually don't know if we're comparing apples and apples here. As I stated part of the problem is a definition of what a game event (for lack of a better term) or defintion of what a "last thing to resolve" includes is. We have rulings but the terms used in the rulings haven't been defined.
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Fine give you that much.

However, there is no way you can pass one responding to a summon once, and then come back and choose to respond to it a second time just because gumfersalb was still the last thing to happen ...absolutely no way.

Personally i'd rather like to see these "rulings" you are refering to that actually support and state what you are claiming... because i can't find any.

The only rulings i see are ones that actually state that you CAN ONLY choose whether to activate or pass then the OP.

I find it interesting that in this game, people need to see "can't" rather than understanding that the rules generally don't state that, and outline what you "can" do. If it doesn't say that you "can" it should be assumed that you "can't"
 
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A second response to an attack was a surprise for many as well.
I'd LOVE to see this all cleared up and for someone to tell me (in english) exactly how this is to be ruled...as I said, I've been after that for over a year with no response.
 
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John Danker said:
A second response to an attack was a surprise for many as well.
I'd LOVE to see this all cleared up and for someone to tell me (in english) exactly how this is to be ruled...as I said, I've been after that for over a year with no response.
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I don't see this second response thing, i've been searching the site for a bit now.
 
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babyarm said:
Four pages, and no one's brought up Tactical Espionage Expert, Invasion of Flames, Eagle Eye, or Creeping Doom Manta. I'm disappointed.
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Those effects are Jinzo-like, just with a limited duration, they don't really add anything to the discussion... unfortunately.
 
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novastar said:
I don't see this second response thing, i've been searching the site for a bit now.
Click to expand...

What do you mean you don't "see" it? You mean you don't see it here, you don't know it exists (I doubt that) or you don't see where people were suprised by it?
 
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John Danker said:
What do you mean you don't "see" it? You mean you don't see it here, you don't know it exists (I doubt that) or you don't see where people were suprised by it?
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I've never seen an actual post from UDE stating that you could pass then respond again to the same event/action... is this a LV3 List post?

If you can post it for me it would be appreciated, even just the important blurb.

Then maybe i'll have a better idea of what you are talking about.
 
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From the L3 judge's list...

------------------------------------------------------

It is clear that "2 passes progresses to the next step" is not true
because no Yu-Gi-Oh! ruling, and no UDE representative has even hinted
at that being true.

If people have been making this assumption it is because people familiar with other TCGs are instilling it in them. The assumption is as dangerous as thinking that you'd have to "tap" your monster to attack.

In practicality, the turn player's options at any point are "do
something" or "declare they are ready to enter the next step/phase". If they choose the 2nd - the opponent gets priority to do something. If they do, and the chain of effects related to it resolves - then it's back to the turn player with their choice of "do something" or "declare they are ready to enter the next step/phase".

Dan Scheidegger

Jr. Game Designer

Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D

----------------------------------------------------

So if you attack me, I do not respond, you state you wish to enter the damage step, I can at this point activate Waboku....that the way I'm interpreting this post. The question that this brings up in my mind though is, if after both players have passed on the declaration of attack, is it too late to activate Sakuretsu Armor when the turn player declares they wish to enter damage step? Here again we're back to defining thing. Is the passing of priority is considered the last thing to happen, the declaration of attack is considered the last thing to happen? The difference is what will / will not make the timing for Sakuretsu Armor correct.

In another post from the L3 List......

----------------------------------------------------
>>I don't see the point why Player 2 can pass, Player 1 can pass as well
and >>Player 2 gets ANOTHER chance to respond to the attack.
-------------------

Because the Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME is not Magic: the Gathering. And that's why we love it.

The game is about having fun, and I will take this opportunity to thank
all of you judges that put up with the people who just want to 'rules lawyer' the opponent out of playing their cards, instead of enjoying the Duel.

-Dan
 
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Firstly, he's playing word games...

He says 2 options:

1. Do something -> meaning -> Activate/Summon/etc.
2. Declare the end of Phase/Step -> meaning -> Pass

It means exactly the same thing, i don't see the need to be stubborn about it. Once the TP chooses 2, the OP then chooses between the same 2 options.

Secondly, the first post does not directly relate to Response Timing at all. The second is basically Dan stating:

"Even though the generally understood rules of response timing actually prevent this, go ahead and break that rule for the kiddies and less fortunate, because YGO is supposed to be a fun game"

This is not about rules lawyering, is about playing properly, not having everything thrown up in the air like a 52 card pickup. This is exactly the lax attitude towards rules/rulings that create the environment were in, where nobody really knows how it works ...even Dan.

Thanks again for posting it John.
 
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