Call of the Haunted & Snatch Steal - remain on field?

Wizit

New Member
Hello

When the monsters equipped with equip cards like Call of the Haunted and Snatch Steal go face-down, I understand that the equip card no longer has a valid target so is no longer equipped even if the monster is flipped back up.

However, in this case, do the equip cards (Call, Snatch) get removed from the field or must they stay on the field meaninglessly, filling up valuable spaces?

Thanks
Wizit
 
**NOTE: I am arguing the 'other' side of this issue for those who may want to know why there actually is an issue...lol.

Now, on to the debate!...

Ok, if you take the text of "Call of the Haunted" too literally, one could say that changing the position of the card from Face-up attack to face-up defense could/would sever the connection between monster and trap. But we all KNOW that's not what happens..lol.

Let's look at the text of "Call of the Haunted", "Nightmare Wheel" and "Spellbinding Circle" shall we?

"Nightmare Wheel" : Select 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field....
"Spellbinding Circle" : Select 1 monster...
"Call of the Haunted" : Select 1 monster from your Graveyard...

Hmm..does anybody see a pattern here? All you are doing is selecting a monster. Face-up or face-down, it's still a monster, which is why both "Spellbinding Circle" and "Nightmare Wheel" will still affect face-down monsters.

So why DOESN'T "Call of the Haunted" stay 'attached' when the monster get's flipped face-down? As Jason_C has stated, there is NOTHING in the card text that would lead somebody to believe that it would lose it's target if the monster was flipped face-down.

Where did the 'ruling' that it does lose it's target come from? Was it from the Judge's List? It's not posted on UDE's site, so why are we being told to rule it that way?
 
The only "pattern" IS that you are selecting a monster. Then, the only pattern from that is between Nightmare Wheel and Spellbinding Circle.

Call of the Haunted specifically places the monster on the field as face-up, and that's where the direct targeting begins.

Nightmare Wheel (we'll stick with this since Spellb is the same) only tells you that a monster on the field is being selected for its effect.

Call of the Haunted says that a face-up monster on the field is the target of its effect.

When the Nightmare Wheel selected monster changes position by effect, it is still the same monster selected.

When the Call of the Haunted selected monster changes position to face-down, Call of the Haunted is no longer selecting a face-up monster for its effect to activate (destroy the monster), and since the monster was NOT destroyed, Call of the Haunted is not destroyed.

There's really nothing to support my position, other than the fact that the other 2 cards do not require the monster to be either face-up or face-down, as it can affect the monster no matter what position it is in.

Also, neither card allows manual changes by its text. Call of the Haunted does not have such a restriction, so a later change to defense (face-up) would not sever the connection, but I would think that the initial summon means that Call of the Haunted will not recognize a face-down monster summoned to the field, or else the text would have said

"Select 1 monster from your Graveyard and Special Summon it to the field in either face-up attack or face-down defense."

This could be explained by using all that noun/pro-noun, adjective, verb stuff we learned in school, but I know someone will come along and debunk it. But....

Imagine this conversation for Call of the Haunted.

1. "When this card is removed from the field, destroy the monster."

2. "What monster?"

1. "The face-up one!"

2. "Ohhh!

Imagine this conversation for Nightmare Wheel.

1. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the selected monster cannot change position or attack."

2. "What monster?"

1. "That monster!"

2. "Ohhh!"
 
**NOTE: I am arguing the 'other' side of this issue for those who may want to know why there actually is an issue...lol.
Other than what? Me?

Ok, if you take the text of "Call of the Haunted" too literally, one could say that changing the position of the card from Face-up attack to face-up defense could/would sever the connection between monster and trap. But we all KNOW that's not what happens..lol.
We don't know anything. I won't debate here if we claim to. This debate is about the logic behind what is "known", not whether it is or not. Rulings can be illogical, inconsistent, and simply wrong.

As I've said, I am not disputing the rulings. I am disputing their supposed logic and consistency. We may "know" that what you mentioned doesn't happen. But if we don't UNDERSTAND why, it's the m00test of m00t points. M00t. Hehe, that's fun. M00t. :p

Let's look at the text of "Call of the Haunted", "Nightmare Wheel" and "Spellbinding Circle" shall we?

"Nightmare Wheel" : Select 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field....
"Spellbinding Circle" : Select 1 monster...
"Call of the Haunted" : Select 1 monster from your Graveyard...

Hmm..does anybody see a pattern here? All you are doing is selecting a monster. Face-up or face-down, it's still a monster, which is why both "Spellbinding Circle" and "Nightmare Wheel" will still affect face-down monsters.
Indeed. The pattern I see here is that all three target at ACTIVATION. Once resolved, none of those cards (logically) should care about whether the monster is face up or not. Now we all "know" Call of the Haunted does indeed care. BKSS.

So why DOESN'T "Call of the Haunted" stay 'attached' when the monster get's flipped face-down? As Jason_C has stated, there is NOTHING in the card text that would lead somebody to believe that it would lose it's target if the monster was flipped face-down.

Where did the 'ruling' that it does lose it's target come from? Was it from the Judge's List? It's not posted on UDE's site, so why are we being told to rule it that way?
I love you.

The only "pattern" IS that you are selecting a monster. Then, the only pattern from that is between Nightmare Wheel and Spellbinding Circle.
Selecting a monster...

...

...

...at ACTIVATION. I so need Digital Jedi to put green lights around that word and make it flash. You know, New Year is coming and all...

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.14367&page=3&pp=10#


Well, the first phrase of that sentence was correct. I can't say I see how the second follows?

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.14367&page=3&pp=10#

True... but I'm afraid I still don't get it...

http://www.cogonline.net/threads.14367&page=3&pp=10#

...at activation...

When the Nightmare Wheel selected monster changes position by effect, it is still the same monster selected.
So why do you say the same doesn't hold true for Call?

When the Call of the Haunted selected monster changes position to face-down, Call of the Haunted is no longer selecting a face-up monster for its effect to activate (destroy the monster), and since the monster was NOT destroyed, Call of the Haunted is not destroyed.
That is indeed the ruling. Now where's the logic?

There's really nothing to support my position, other than the fact that the other 2 cards do not require the monster to be either face-up or face-down, as it can affect the monster no matter what position it is in.

The fact that Call is VAGUE-er than the other two doesn't make it DIFFERENT-er than them. That grammar was so horrible, I may as well have said, "Yep, Call's be li3k teh vuage, but but but but no differnt..."

Also, neither card allows manual changes by its text. Call of the Haunted does not have such a restriction, so a later change to defense (face-up) would not sever the connection, but I would think that the initial summon means that Call of the Haunted will not recognize a face-down monster summoned to the field, or else the text would have said
Once again, the fact that Call's effect is less specific doesn't make it mechanically different from the others.

"Select 1 monster from your Graveyard and Special Summon it to the field in either face-up attack or face-down defense."

This could be explained by using all that noun/pro-noun, adjective, verb stuff we learned in school, but I know someone will come along and debunk it. But....

Debunk a theory that uses good grammar to prove a point? I would NEVER do such a thing, EXCEPT in the world of YGO, where I can honestly say Konami/UDE doesn't give a rip about grammar, so it is a m00t point. Hehe...

Imagine this conversation for Call of the Haunted.

1. "When this card is removed from the field, destroy the monster."

2. "What monster?"

1. "The face-up one!"

2. "Ohhh!

Imagine this conversation for Nightmare Wheel.

1. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the selected monster cannot change position or attack."

2. "What monster?"

1. "That monster!"

2. "Ohhh!"
I'll reiterate that nothing on Call would indicate the monster would have to be face up after ACTIVATION.

I am so PMing DJ about that word. I think both "activation" and also "resolution" need smilies of their own. Maybe I can get him to make ones for "discard", "destroy", and "send to the graveyard".
 
A face-down card is still a monster, but it can't be this monster, that monster or the monster.

A face-down can be defined if there's nothing to define it by.

What I mean is that Nightmare Wheel targets a "Monster Card" or a Card in the Monster Zone.

Call of the Haunted is looking specifically for one specific Monster, declared by name at activation and it is constantly looking at that monster.

But once that monster becomes undefined Call of the Haunted gives up and goes to sleep.
 
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
A face-down card is still a monster, but it can't be this monster, that monster or the monster.

A face-down can be defined if there's nothing to define it by.

What I mean is that Nightmare Wheel targets a "Monster Card" or a Card in the Monster Zone.

Call of the Haunted is looking specifically for one specific Monster, declared by name at activation and it is constantly looking at that monster.

But once that monster becomes undefined Call of the Haunted gives up and goes to sleep.
That makes perfect sense. But I still don't see anything on Call that SAYS that.
 
Just because you cant prove one point is valid, doesnt make it "less right".

Call of the Haunted doesnt say it can continue to target a face-down monster. It also doesnt say that it can't, but we arent trying to understand why it cant, because we are told that it can't.

If you are trying to understand why it should be able to, then that is something that will never be explained because it's not supposed to work that way. Logically, it's like trying to force a square block into a round hole. Even if you find a big enough hole, its still wrong.
 
You know something just came to mind, a little of topic, but this is just bugging me too much:

Impenetrable Formation

Select 1 monster on your side of the field to activate this card. While you have 2 or more monsters on your side of the field, and all monsters on your side of the field are in Defense Position, increase the DEF of the selected monster by 700 points. When the selected monster is removed from the field, destroy this card.

now I know this has nothing to do with the current discussion, but having this other card with the same text as this all the above cards, though it doesn't specify how the monster should be either, so what should we assume, that the monster must be face-up or it wouldn't matter.

I bring this into account, because if it does matter if the card specifies how the monster should be selected then it won't matter how Call of the Haunted selected a monster either, but regardless of this Call does infact select a position, at resolution.
 
You cant increase the defense of a face-down monster, so obviously it must be face-up.

As far as evidence of why or why not Call of the Haunted should target a face-down, you cant have evidence or it would be in the ruling, which it isnt, and there would not be a question as to whether it worked like you said, but there is, so, that must mean your argument is about as pointless as mine, but at least mine is based on the correct ruling and not something Im trying to change.
 
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Call of the Haunted is looking specifically for one specific Monster, declared by name at activation and it is constantly looking at that monster.

But once that monster becomes undefined Call of the Haunted gives up and goes to sleep.
Ok, so how does "Nightmare Wheel" or "Spellbinding Circle" know which card they are stopping?

Scenario 'stolen from Masterwoo0'..lol:
Imagine this conversation for "Nightmare Wheel".

1. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the selected monster cannot change position or attack."
2. "What monster?"
1. "That monster!" Points to a monster card.
2. "Ohhh!"

"That monster"...How do you specify which monster if it's face-up? By name..silly.

And how many people proactively use "Nightmare Wheel" and/or "Spellbinding Circle" on an already face-down monster?

So, in a 'normal' situation, when I activate "Nightmare Wheel" or "Spellbinding Circle", I declare the name of the monster that I am targeting. How is that any different than when I activate "Call of the Haunted"?

***This is weird being on this side of the argument..lol***
 
skey23 said:
So, in a 'normal' situation, when I activate "Nightmare Wheel" or "Spellbinding Circle", I declare the name of the monster that I am targeting. How is that any different than when I activate "Call of the Haunted"?
Because when you select a monster for Nightmare Wheel or Spellbinding Circle, you're simply selecting a monster. Whether you know the name of the monster or not, you're selecting "that" monster. You don't even need to know the name, you can just point to a monster.

When you select a monster for Call of the Haunted, you're picking one specific monster, by name, from your Graveyard. When said monster is flipped face-down, it has no name, and in fact no other distinguishing characteristics (type, sub-type, etc.). That's why CotH cannot continue to target a face-down monster.
 
This is all good and what not, but neither side is proven. One side can go to great lengths to logically explain why it would become meaingless, but it is all moot until UDE officially posts it on their site or whatever. Just because a card says it can do this or that does not mean it can. I think Sacred of Phoenix Nephthys text would be a good indication of that. Nothing is as simple and Yu-Gi-Oh! continues to become more confusing and less welcoming.
 
Any monster that has an Equip Spell card Equipped to it is destroyed, turned face down, removed from play, or returned from the hand, the Equip Spell card will be destroyed due to Game Mechanics.

Call of the Haunted is a little different. Basing it off the text of Call of the Haunted, if the monster is Tributed off by any kind of an effect or for a Tribute Summoning, then Call of the Haunted stays on the field meaninglessly. If the monster is turned face down then Call of the Haunted stays on the field meaninglessly since it's target is unknown and it's looking for it, it just sits there with a DUMB cap on it's head wondering what to do. If the monster is removed from play via card effects like D.D. Warrior Lady will once again keep Call of the Haunted on the field. Since the monster was never destroyed Call of the Haunted will never be destroyed.

This also applies to card effects such as Strike Ninja, Interdimensional Matter Transporter, and Dimensionalhole.

I don't really see the big problem over this. If I'm wrong in something I've said, please inform me.
 
Tkwiget said:
Any monster that has an Equip Spell card Equipped to it is destroyed, turned face down, removed from play, or returned from the hand, the Equip Spell card will be destroyed due to Game Mechanics.

Call of the Haunted is a little different. Basing it off the text of Call of the Haunted, if the monster is Tributed off by any kind of an effect or for a Tribute Summoning, then Call of the Haunted stays on the field meaninglessly. If the monster is turned face down then Call of the Haunted stays on the field meaninglessly since it's target is unknown and it's looking for it, it just sits there with a DUMB cap on it's head wondering what to do. If the monster is removed from play via card effects like D.D. Warrior Lady will once again keep Call of the Haunted on the field. Since the monster was never destroyed Call of the Haunted will never be destroyed.

This also applies to card effects such as Strike Ninja, Interdimensional Matter Transporter, and Dimensionalhole.

I don't really see the big problem over this. If I'm wrong in something I've said, please inform me.

You are basically right, but because there is no evidence for it, this thread was created :)
 
Tiso said:
This is all good and what not, but neither side is proven. One side can go to great lengths to logically explain why it would become meaingless, but it is all moot until UDE officially posts it on their site or whatever. Just because a card says it can do this or that does not mean it can. I think Sacred of Phoenix Nephthys text would be a good indication of that. Nothing is as simple and Yu-Gi-Oh! continues to become more confusing and less welcoming.
But its not a "moot point". If its for all intents and purposes ONLY affecting a face-up monster, and there is no reason for why, even if we have to reason out one, its better than telling a Player who may win or lose his Match because of your ruling, that, "I dont know why, but that's the way it is..."

Doesnt inspire much faith in your ruling and doesnt leave them with that warm and fuzzy feeling you get when you ask a question like, "Does a 5-Star monster only require 1 monster as a Tribute to summon it?"

If you know the answer is right, but you are continually using the "Because Konami Said So" as your reply, that is a dis-service to yourself and the player you give that answer to. In this world, it's all about "The Answer". "The Answer", whether it's based on fact, rumor, or inuendo, is STILL an answer.

Because Konami Said So is not an answer. It's an attempt to cover a lack of concern with "why" Konami said so. To every problem, there is an eventual solution, regardless of how long it takes to arrive at it. I am not endorsing anyone to lie or make up an answer, but a answer based on logical Reasoning is why we do what we do.

If you have one side trying to say that Call of the Haunted doesnt lose its target if it is flipped face-down, but they KNOW that nothing has supported that perception, and actually rule it that way in a Tournament (because someone reading this thread WILL try to do it, I guarantee that!!), and another side that supports the idea that ONLY a face-up monster is affected, and rules it that way, and at least gives a credible answer that will spread from player to player, that's a GOOD THING!

At least the player with the answer that is more right, will tell others that Call of the Haunted can only affect face-up, based upon what he knows. The player with the bad information will never pass anything to anyone that is believable because it isnt based on a credilbe ruling, and it will continue to cause confusion.

Logic is still alive. If you shove it to the side, you create the can of worms we have opened in this thread. There is a logic to this Game. However, since we arent the ones that are being relied upon to create a logically based ruling, only the "Interpretation" of them, then that is left to those who may not always think logically, and base their Rulings that they pass on to us, on what they see, and not what they "read".

Sometimes even the smartest person doesnt always know enough to change a light bulb when he cant turn on the lights...
 
Tkwiget said:
Any monster that has an Equip Spell card Equipped to it is destroyed, turned face down, removed from play, or returned from the hand, the Equip Spell card will be destroyed due to Game Mechanics.

Call of the Haunted is a little different. Basing it off the text of Call of the Haunted, if the monster is Tributed off by any kind of an effect or for a Tribute Summoning, then Call of the Haunted stays on the field meaninglessly. If the monster is turned face down then Call of the Haunted stays on the field meaninglessly since it's target is unknown and it's looking for it, it just sits there with a DUMB cap on it's head wondering what to do. If the monster is removed from play via card effects like D.D. Warrior Lady will once again keep Call of the Haunted on the field. Since the monster was never destroyed Call of the Haunted will never be destroyed.

This also applies to card effects such as Strike Ninja, Interdimensional Matter Transporter, and Dimensionalhole.

I don't really see the big problem over this. If I'm wrong in something I've said, please inform me.

More precisely Call will stay on the field not becuase of it's text but because it is still considered a Coninous Trap card.
 
"That monster"...How do you specify which monster if it's face-up? By name..silly.
That kind of thinking is what I'm arguing against. If I have two Slate Warriors on the field, and my opponent activates Nightmare Wheel designating "Slate Warrior" as the target, are both of my monsters stuck? No, of course not. If my opponent targets "Monster Zone #3", and then BoM followed by Shifting Shadows enters the duel, does a DIFFERENT monster become the target? Of course not.

So logically, how do we recognize monsters? We just do. My opponent targets "That Slate Warrior right there" and points to it. From then on, THAT IS THE TARGET. Targets, ranks, etc are not determined by name, position, age, gender, or skin color (kidding) :p They are determined by who we are on the inside. Call would not lose its target when the target goes fd. Because Call recognizes its target by who it is.
 
masterwoo0 said:
But its not a "moot point". If its for all intents and purposes ONLY affecting a face-up monster, and there is no reason for why, even if we have to reason out one, its better than telling a Player who may win or lose his Match because of your ruling, that, "I dont know why, but that's the way it is..."

Doesnt inspire much faith in your ruling and doesnt leave them with that warm and fuzzy feeling you get when you ask a question like, "Does a 5-Star monster only require 1 monster as a Tribute to summon it?"

If you know the answer is right, but you are continually using the "Because Konami Said So" as your reply, that is a dis-service to yourself and the player you give that answer to. In this world, it's all about "The Answer". "The Answer", whether it's based on fact, rumor, or inuendo, is STILL an answer.

Because Konami Said So is not an answer. It's an attempt to cover a lack of concern with "why" Konami said so. To every problem, there is an eventual solution, regardless of how long it takes to arrive at it. I am not endorsing anyone to lie or make up an answer, but a answer based on logical Reasoning is why we do what we do.

If you have one side trying to say that Call of the Haunted doesnt lose its target if it is flipped face-down, but they KNOW that nothing has supported that perception, and actually rule it that way in a Tournament (because someone reading this thread WILL try to do it, I guarantee that!!), and another side that supports the idea that ONLY a face-up monster is affected, and rules it that way, and at least gives a credible answer that will spread from player to player, that's a GOOD THING!

At least the player with the answer that is more right, will tell others that Call of the Haunted can only affect face-up, based upon what he knows. The player with the bad information will never pass anything to anyone that is believable because it isnt based on a credilbe ruling, and it will continue to cause confusion.

Logic is still alive. If you shove it to the side, you create the can of worms we have opened in this thread. There is a logic to this Game. However, since we arent the ones that are being relied upon to create a logically based ruling, only the "Interpretation" of them, then that is left to those who may not always think logically, and base their Rulings that they pass on to us, on what they see, and not what they "read".

Sometimes even the smartest person doesnt always know enough to change a light bulb when he cant turn on the lights...

I think you are confused. I have never once said this was official because Konami said so. I said this like Konami to make cards, give out nonsense rulings, do not give out enough rulings. I.E. Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, if you can tell me straight out where does it say on the card that if it was removed from play it could not come out, please tell me. This is one of those situations where the card is made to be wrong all because Konami decided to be:

Because we said so, niyah niyah

I honestly do not care. Neither side has proven their point. You can logic this game all you can, but nothing is logical about Yu-Gi-Oh! when crazy rulings where a card states that if it was destroyed, notice destroyed and not sent to just the Graveyard, should be resurrected but are not. Level Modulation is another nonsense in of itself. None of the conditions have been met and until I see some official Konami documentation, something from UDE I will play Call of the Haunted the way I saw it played in the video games.
 
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