cyber phoenix & enemy controller

[cuzwbd]

we came had this come up twice tonight in 2 slightly different situations....
p1 has a set enemy controller , 2 gadgets on his side of field and 3 in hand cards one of which is last will
p2 has only a cyberdragon and a set s/t, 1 card in hand
p1 draws for turn , activates last will,then activatesenemy controller sending a gadget to graveyard to take control of p2 cyber dragon . then p1 resolves last will and special summons cyber phoenix. p1 enters battle phase and attacks successfully with gadget,cyberdragon and cyber phoenix ,main phase 2 sets a s/t and ends turn
p2 wants to take back cyber dragon , p1 says no - cyber phoenix prevents machines controlled by him from the (lingering) effect of enemy controller...argument ensues....
does it matter that ec was activated before cyber phoenix was on field? does it matter that controller is not owner of cyberdragon?
i thought it would remain with p1but wasnt sure
the other time both ec and last will were activated from hand and jinzo was taken control of - essentially the same
does cyber phoenix negate the lingering effect of enemy controller allowing you to keep a 'snatched' machine?even if summoned after ?

 

[skey23]

The 'lingering' effect of "Enemy Controller" does not target. The monster will still return to the opponent during the End Phase.

 

[ygo doc]

Enemy Controller and cards such as Change of Heart do target; however, these cards once sent to the Graveyard have fully resolved. They leave a condition or "lingering effect" on the controlled monster that cannot be negated by card effects such as Cyber Phoenix or Spell Canceller when they come into play after the resolution of Enemy Controller. This condition is not considered a targeting effect.

Note that these monsters return to their owner even if turned face-down or removed from play. Most cards lose their targeting effect when monsters are turned face-down or RFP.

doc

 

[cuzwbd]

huh, :? i didn't expect that as an answer...that the lingering effect dosent target.....can you tell me why/how that works ?? and would it matter if cyber phoenix was already on field when enemy controller was activated ??



edit - sorry - took kids to school 1/2 thru this post and didn't see ygo doc - but still how does that work - i know same would be for brain control & book of moon etc....goes back ... but if it dosent target how does it know which monster to return?? and still - does it matter if cp was on field before activation of ec? or brain control??

 

[ygo doc]

huh, :? i didn't expect that as an answer...that the lingering effect dosent target.....can you tell me why/how that works ?? and would it matter if cyber phoenix was already on field when enemy controller was activated ??



edit - sorry - took kids to school 1/2 thru this post and didn't see ygo doc - but still how does that work - i know same would be for brain control & book of moon etc....goes back ... but if it dosent target how does it know which monster to return?? and still - does it matter if cp was on field before activation of ec? or brain control??

Certainly it matters if Cyber Phoenix was on the Field first, because if the target of Enemy Controller is a machine monster, its effect is negated. The monster never changes sides and no condition is placed on it.

I'm using the term "condition" to explain this lingering effect, which is my terminology, not UDE's or Konami's. Other's use the term "lingering effect". I am unaware that Konami or UDE have ever offered a clear explanation of a "condition" or "lingering effect", etc. I use the same term for tokens. Tokens are always considered normal monsters, but may have conditions placed upon them. Sheep tokens cannot be used for a tribute summon or set. This condition cannot be negated by any current card effect that I am aware of.

The "king" card of "lingering effects" is the banned card, Last Turn. Read the first ruling under its FAQ. The terminology used in the FAQ is "effects that resolve later" after the card itself has resolved and it specifically mentions similar cards such as Change of Heart and Last Will. Perhaps Simon's use of "lingering effect" [= "effects that resolve later"] may be more appropriate. I personally like the term "condition" as that clearly distinguishes it from "effect" which tends to make us think it may be negated.

Long time duelists will remember similar situations with banned cards such as Change of Heart and Imperial Order. If Yugi used Change of Heart to take control of his opponent's monster and then later activated Imperial Order, the monster still returns to it's owner at End Phase. Imperial Order wouldn't even care if the effect is targeting or non-targeting; however, it does not negate effects that have already been applied by a non-continuous resolved card. It's like Jinzo can't negate the effect of Waboku activated earlier in the turn.

If you really want to be a "rules monger" or just semi-confused, read up on Magical Scientist which has an "applied effect" to special summoned Fusion monsters. The "applied effect" can be reset or removed, but it cannot be negated. [Disclaimer: "Applied Effect" is my terminology to explain this effect, not Konami's]

'nuff said
doc

 

[cuzwbd]

so - if cp is on field and ec brings opponents machine to my side - ec is immediately "disconnected" from opponents monster and returns? :huh i think we mis communicated there...cyber phoenix protects machine type monsters i control (my side) from spell/traps that target...right? or am i off on that too :?


i do get the waboku/jinzo thing - i've managed to pull that a few times...but i also thought about rfdd & jinzo being returned then rfp at end (by rfdd's lingering effect) but wildheart would return and stay being 'unaffected by traps' and thought that cyber phoenix might be similar (protecting machines on my side from effects that linger as long as they 'target'....)

i get (i think) that spell canceller dosent 'cancel' lingering effects...like jinzo & traps ...only face up and prevent activation - not 'immune' - i was apparently wrong thinking 'negate effects that target' would apply to lingering effects i am just not getting the why.... sigh... it still returns to opponents side because of a spell effect placed on targeted monster...guess i'll grapple with it some more - unless somebody can walk into the room with a lit lamp and whack me over the head.... :rolleyes

 

[Maruno]

Certainly it matters if Cyber Phoenix was on the Field first, because if the target of Enemy Controller is a machine monster, its effect is negated. The monster never changes sides and no condition is placed on it.

I'll just go ahead and disprove this, and very easily so too. Hope you don't mind.

Player 1 has Cyber Phoenix and another monster on the field. She activates Enemy Controller, Tributing the another monster and targeting Player 2's Cyber Dragon. Cyber Dragon switches control upon resolution, and stays there until the End Phase.

Cyber Phoenix only negates targeting Spell or Trap Cards that target Machines on ITS side of the field. When Enemy Controller is activated, the targeted Cyber Dragon was on the opponent's side of the field. Very simply, Cyber Phoenix doesn't cover it.

So actually, the presence of Cyber Phoenix on Player 1's side of the field is irrelevant. It won't stop Enemy Controller being activated in the first place, and it won't negate any lingering effect.

i do get the waboku/jinzo thing - i've managed to pull that a few times...but i also thought about rfdd & jinzo being returned then rfp at end (by rfdd's lingering effect) but wildheart would return and stay being 'unaffected by traps' and thought that cyber phoenix might be similar (protecting machines on my side from effects that linger as long as they 'target'....)

i get (i think) that spell canceller dosent 'cancel' lingering effects...like jinzo & traps ...only face up and prevent activation - not 'immune' - i was apparently wrong thinking 'negate effects that target' would apply to lingering effects i am just not getting the why.... sigh... it still returns to opponents side because of a spell effect placed on targeted monster...guess i'll grapple with it some more - unless somebody can walk into the room with a lit lamp and whack me over the head.... :rolleyes

The difference between Jinzo and Tenkabito Shien (I prefer his name to the E-Hero) is that Jinzo negates Trap Cards, and Tenkabito Shien is simply unaffected by any effects (including lingering ones) that come from Trap Cards. Jinzo is certainly not immune to Trap Cards; he just doesn't let them activate (and/or negates them). Therefore Jinzo is affected by the lingering effect caused by Return from the Different Dimension, and does get removed from play at the end of the turn.

Tenkabito Shien is unaffected by Trap Cards while on the field (as is the E-Hero), so while it can be Special Summoned by Return from the Different Dimension, once his effect comes into play, he ignores the lingering effect that tells him to go back where he came from. He doesn't negate it. He simply doesn't listen to it.

You cannot negate a lingering effect. You negate cards. There's no possible way to negate a card that's already resolved. Just because its effect lingers on, doesn't mean it's any different.

 

[ygo doc]

I'll just go ahead and disprove this, and very easily so too. Hope you don't mind.

Player 1 has Cyber Phoenix and another monster on the field. She activates Enemy Controller, Tributing the another monster and targeting Player 2's Cyber Dragon. Cyber Dragon switches control upon resolution, and stays there until the End Phase.

Cyber Phoenix only negates targeting Spell or Trap Cards that target Machines on ITS side of the field. When Enemy Controller is activated, the targeted Cyber Dragon was on the opponent's side of the field. Very simply, Cyber Phoenix doesn't cover it.

So actually, the presence of Cyber Phoenix on Player 1's side of the field is irrelevant. It won't stop Enemy Controller being activated in the first place, and it won't negate any lingering effect...

Thanks Maruno for pointing that out. Since the owner of Cyber Phoenix is the one using Enemy Controller, there is no negation effect. My BAD as I was thinking the opponent activated Enemy Controller. I am still assuming that P1 did use Last Will to special summon Cyber Phoenix in attack position; otherwise, most of this discussion has been unnecessary.

doc

 

[ygo doc]

so - if cp is on field and ec brings opponents machine to my side - ec is immediately "disconnected" from opponents monster and returns? :huh i think we mis communicated there...cyber phoenix protects machine type monsters i control (my side) from spell/traps that target...right? or am i off on that too :? ...

I miscommunicated. Read Maruno's reply. I forgot the Cyber Phoenix owner was also the controller of Enemy Controller, which makes an obvious difference here.

doc

 

[ygo doc]

...You cannot negate a lingering effect. You negate cards. There's no possible way to negate a card that's already resolved. Just because its effect lingers on, doesn't mean it's any different.

In general, I'd agree that lingering effects cannot be negated. However, in Yu-Gi-Oh! there always seems to be exceptions to the rule. Swords of Revealing Light comes to mind. This Spell card can fully resolve but still have its effect negated.

doc

 

[Maruno]

In general, I'd agree that lingering effects cannot be negated. However, in Yu-Gi-Oh! there always seems to be exceptions to the rule. Swords of Revealing Light comes to mind. This Spell card can fully resolve but still have its effect negated.

The effect of Swords of Revealing Light is a continuous effect being generated by the card itself. It's not a lingering effect. Since the card remains on the field, of course it can be negated by Spell Canceller, etc. I'm talking about cards that have resolved and gone to the Graveyard, not ones that remain on the field (Continuous cards and a few others).

 

[cuzwbd]

thanks much guys...
condition/effect of MY enemy controller targeting OPPONENTS monster can't be negated by my cyber phoenix whether it's on my field at activation (of ec) or after control is switched (summoned by effect of last will) since cyber phoenix only negates (at activation ) spells and traps that target my monsters (on my side ) right?

 

[Maruno]

Umm...

Your Cyber Phoenix cannot negate your Enemy Controller taking control of an opponent's Machine-Type monster, because it's the wrong side of the field (and by the time it reaches your side of the field it's too late to negate).

Summoning Cyber Phoenix after you've taken control of a Machine-Type monster with a Spell or Trap Card does nothing, because the lingering effect caused by the Spell or Trap Card cannot be negated.

Lingering effects can only be ignored (read: monster is unaffected by them), and only a handful of cards can do that. As far as I know, this is the list:



Cannonball Spear Shellfish/Torpedo Fish/Deepsea Warrior/The Legendary Fisherman - Umi-dependent

Guardian Kay'est/Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6/Silent Magician LV8/Silent Swordsman LV5/The Agent of Force - Mars/Ultimate Insect LV1 - Inherent (against Spells)

Elemental Hero Wildheart/Tenkabito Shien - Inherent (against Traps)

Metallizing Parasite - Lunatite - The equipped monster (against Spells)
Dust Barrier/Non-Spellcasting Area - Normal Monsters (against Spells)
Pole Position - Highest ATK monster(s) (against Spells)

 

[Martok]

Some people seem to misunderstand what Enemy Controller does.

Enemy Controller does NOT place a condition on a monster. This also means that there's nothing to "reset".

The monster is NOT returned to the former controller's side of the field by a lingering effect. The monster is returned by basic game mechanics.

At resolution, Enemy Controller creates a state that gives temporary control of the monster to the controller of EC until the End Phase. When this state expires, the monster is returned to the player who has the "permanent control" over it (permanent control is something that can be changed via a card effect that is not temporary, such as the effect of "Creature Swap").
this also means that if player2 would have activated Pole Position during the turn, Cyber Dragon would *immediately* have returned to player2's side of the field.


The effect of Cyber Phoenix (or, say, Spell Canceller, since CP is also side-dependant) cannot negate basic game mechanics. There's not reason for Cyber Dragon to stay on player1's side of the field.

 

[Maruno]

Show me the game mechanic that states: "All monsters that have switched control during this turn are returned to their previous controller's control at the end of the turn." I haven't heard it before. All statements like that are built into the cards that change the control, usually in the form of "until the end of this turn". That's an effect that lingers, not a game mechanic. We call it a lingering effect, or condition. As far as I know, they mean the same thing. They both work the same, anyway.

Effects that negate Spell or Trap Cards cannot negate lingering effects and/or conditions, by definition. That's why it works like that.

 

[skey23]

Yeah...sorry Martok, but it's not a Game Mechanic. It's the effect of "Enemy Controller" that returns that monster to the opponent. Hence the words 'until the end of this turn'. Permanent control is given when the effect does not state 'until the end of this turn' or something similar.

 

[Martok]

Show me the game mechanic that states: "All monsters that have switched control during this turn are returned to their previous controller's control at the end of the turn." I haven't heard it before.

That's not what I have written. What I've written is that once all the temporary control changes expired, the monster goes to the side of the player that has the permanent control over the monster (this is not necessarily the previous controller).

Yeah...sorry Martok, but it's not a Game Mechanic. It's the effect of "Enemy Controller" that returns that monster to the opponent.

The effect of EC can never give control of a monster to the player that does not control the effect of EC. The effect of EC just expires at the end phase. (although it's a commonly used way of speaking that EC "returns" the monster, like "responding to the end of a phase", but it's just not 100% correct, and it can, in some cases, make a difference, see below for examples).

This has been proven by at least 3 rulings:

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=9939#9939
Here the monster is not on the field during the end phase. Still, control of the monster switches back.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=9309#9309
Dan corrected himself by saying that BC does not give control back to player 2.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4251#4251
Here the player loses control over Horus LV6 immediately after flipping it face-up. If it was the lingering effect of Mind Control that would give control of Horus LV6 back during the end phase, then control would not swith back at all, since Horus LV6 is unaffected by the effecte of Spell Cards, including lingering effects.

Also, in the case that the permanent and temporary controller happen to be the same during the turn, the monster does not change sides during the end phase, not even for a moment:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=6185#6185

 

[Maruno]

That's not what I have written. What I've written is that once all the temporary control changes expired, the monster goes to the side of the player that has the permanent control over the monster (this is not necessarily the previous controller).

You're going off on a tangent there, an irrelevant one.

The effect of EC can never give control of a monster to the player that does not control the effect of EC. The effect of EC just expires at the end phase. (although it's a commonly used way of speaking that EC "returns" the monster, like "responding to the end of a phase", but it's just not 100% correct, and it can, in some cases, make a difference, see below for examples).

This has been proven by at least 3 rulings:

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=9939#9939
Here the monster is not on the field during the end phase. Still, control of the monster switches back.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=9309#9309
Dan corrected himself by saying that BC does not give control back to player 2.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4251#4251
Here the player loses control over Horus LV6 immediately after flipping it face-up. If it was the lingering effect of Mind Control that would give control of Horus LV6 back during the end phase, then control would not swith back at all, since Horus LV6 is unaffected by the effecte of Spell Cards, including lingering effects.

Also, in the case that the permanent and temporary controller happen to be the same during the turn, the monster does not change sides during the end phase, not even for a moment:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=6185#6185

I don't see how any of this adds to the discussion. Isn't it all tangential/irrelevant?

If the effect of Enemy Controller (et al.) simply expires at the end of the turn, then control wouldn't be switched back. It's simply for convenience that the card says "until the end of the turn" instead of "At the end of the turn, switch control of the monster back to the person who would control the monster assuming that no one-turn-only effects are changing which person is its controller".

No, part of the lingering effect of Enemy Controller is to return control of the monster back to its rightful controller.

Note that the switching of control at the end of the turn is NOT a simple "go to opponent" command. If the rightful controller and the temporary controller are the same person, the lingering effect notices this and keeps the monster where it is (a la your last source).

 

[Fury]

I have to side with Martok here.
I remember in the earlier days about Change of Heart they said that IT returns the monster at the end of turn. But later they rivised that and always said(implied) that the effect expires at the end of turn and Game Mechanic returns it. Without the effect of CoH the opponent cant control my monster so it returns.

EDIT: Plus click the link on CoH, and read e.g. the ruling about Aussa - "expires" is the word used.

Plus RFG-d monster dont have lingering effects, right?

 

[skey23]

That's not what I have written. What I've written is that once all the temporary control changes expired, the monster goes to the side of the player that has the permanent control over the monster (this is not necessarily the previous controller).

I will agree with this statement 100%. It seems I misread your initial response. My apologies.

Also, the "Horus LV6" example actually proves it's a lingering effect left over. This is why he's immediately returned to the previous controller when flipped up.