Dark World Monsters

krishna

krishna

CoG iTrader
I don't know if this has been asked before, but it's something that has bugged me for a long time.

I know that Dark World monsters are not "Optional" but, just when exactly do you activate or resolve their effect?

For instance, if they are discarded in the middle of a chain, would one get special summoned to the field directly after being discarded, or would you have to wait for the chain to be resolved completely before doing so?
 
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Jathro said:
In addition to that, Dark World monsters do not miss their timing because of this fact that they create a new chain.
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Well, that's not entirely correct there Jathro...

They don't miss their timing because they have Mandatory Triggered Effects. Even Optional Triggered Effects create new chains....;)
 
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Had an arguement with someone claiming to be a LV1 Judge the other day. Flip Morphing Jar, discard hand which has a Dark World monster in it, draw 5 cards and special summon the Dark World monster. Player activates Trap Hole on monster. Miss the timing or not?
 
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You couldn't activate Trap Hole when a monster is Special Summoned in the first place.

Now if you meant Bottomless Trap Hole, it would depend.

If the controller of Morphing Jar is not the controller of the Dark World Monsters (well, Goldd and Sillva specifically) then yes you would miss the timing. Note you would NOT miss the timing against Reign-Beaux (but see caveat below).

If the same person controls both, you would not miss the timing. (Again, see caveat below).

CAVEAT: Since the Dark World Monsters' effects would use the chain, and do not occur simultaneously, BTH would only affect the last monster summoned and again only if it's the last thing to occur in the chain. So if Goldd, Sillva, and Broww are discarded, if Broww is set up as Chain Link 1, Goldd as 2, and Sillva as 3, when it resolves Sillva is summoned to the field, then Goldd, and then lastly, you draw a card. Since drawing is the last thing to occur, no BTH.

Reign-Beaux's effect is actually a 2 part effect. He must be special summoned to the field first by being discarded by the opponent's effect. If he is special summoned in this manner, that's when the 2nd effect would activate (the Raigeki or Harpie's Feather Duster). It's different from Goldd and Sillva where both effects activate while they're still in the GY. That's why if RB being summoned is the last thing to occur, you can activate BTH (though your opponent would still get 1 of the other 2 effects).
 
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denetsu, do you have a link to the ruling that says goldd and silva can activeate their effects of destroying cards and sending cards to the deck while their still in the grave yard. thanks
 
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"Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World" must be Special Summoned to resolve the second part of his effect. If you cannot Summon him because you activated "Scapegoat" that turn, or your Monster Card Zones are full, then the second part of his effect does not resolve. i got this off of netrep.net
 
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Well you answered your own question. Goldd and Sillva's effects will both have everything activate at the same time... while they are still in the GY. If you can't Special Summon them, you cannot get the rest of the effect too.
 
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ok, goldd and silva and broww are discarded due to an opponets morphing jar, and your resolve the chain as broww 1, silva 2, and goldd 3, goldd is summoned looks for two cards to destroy, silva is summoned looks for two cards to send back to the deck, and then you draw 2 cards for browws effect. and nowhere in the middle of this resolving can your opponet play bottomless traphole to the effect of goldd destroying cards or silva sending cards to the deck. thanks for the help. As i have been told on more than one ocasion by John Danker, "sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees" you are right you cant ativate bottomless traphole, the timing is wrong. once again thanks
 
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Of course the way you described the chain, even if it was your Morphing Jar that was flipped (as I said earlier) if you followed that exact chain as you wrote it would resolve as:

Goldd is Summoned to the field.
Sillva is Summoned to the field.
You draw a card (Broww's effect).

Last thing to resolve is the drawing of the card so again you miss the timing for BTH.

Let's say you don't have Broww but Beiige instead and that is chain link 1.

The resolution would be:

Goldd is Summoned, Sillva is Summoned, Beiige is Summoned.

Since the last thing to happen here is a Summon, you can respond with BTH, though the only monster affected would be the last one summoned (Beiige in this case). This isn't like Cyber Jar or Dimension Fusion where multiple monsters are summoned at the same time. Each monster has a link on the chain and each chain link is only summoning one monster.
 
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I have a question along the lines of timing with DW monsters... can you activate Pulling the Rug against Goldd or Silva? My guess is no since they activate in the GY but am hoping to be wrong ;)
 
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Pulling the Rug
Text:
Negate the activation and effect of an Effect Monster whose effect activated when a monster was Normal Summoned (even itself), and destroy that Effect Monster.

Since the Dark World monsters are special summoned from the graveyard, you cannot activate Pulling the Rug.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Now if you meant Bottomless Trap Hole, it would depend.

If the controller of Morphing Jar is not the controller of the Dark World Monsters (well, Goldd and Sillva specifically) then yes you would miss the timing. Note you would NOT miss the timing against Reign-Beaux (but see caveat below).

If the same person controls both, you would not miss the timing. (Again, see caveat below).

CAVEAT: Since the Dark World Monsters' effects would use the chain, and do not occur simultaneously, BTH would only affect the last monster summoned and again only if it's the last thing to occur in the chain. So if Goldd, Sillva, and Broww are discarded, if Broww is set up as Chain Link 1, Goldd as 2, and Sillva as 3, when it resolves Sillva is summoned to the field, then Goldd, and then lastly, you draw a card. Since drawing is the last thing to occur, no BTH.
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I was told that if I was the controller of the Dark World monsters and the controller of Morphing Jar and I flipped Morphing Jar (not as a result of battle) that the Dark World monsters are special summoned at the same time and when my opponent activates Bottomless Traphole, that ALL Dark World monsters are destroyed and removed from play. The person cited the ruling for Cyber Jar as their basis for this ruling. What's the truth in THIS situation?
 
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HorusMaster said:
Pulling the Rug
Text:
Negate the activation and effect of an Effect Monster whose effect activated when a monster was Normal Summoned (even itself), and destroy that Effect Monster.

Since the Dark World monsters are special summoned from the graveyard, you cannot activate Pulling the Rug.
Click to expand...

thanks, I tend to skim the text too much and not read it carefully... thanks for being polite Mr. Texas to a silly dude here.
 
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HorusMaster said:
I was told that if I was the controller of the Dark World monsters and the controller of Morphing Jar and I flipped Morphing Jar (not as a result of battle) that the Dark World monsters are special summoned at the same time and when my opponent activates Bottomless Traphole, that ALL Dark World monsters are destroyed and removed from play. The person cited the ruling for Cyber Jar as their basis for this ruling. What's the truth in THIS situation?
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I would say the truth is in what the rest of the people here have been saying. The logic in using Cyber Jar as the basis for validation of your scenario is flawed:

The monsters that may be special summoned by Cyber Jar's effect stems from the effect of one card (Cyber Jar itself), thus all monsters would be special summoned at the same time, creating a situation where BTH can remove all applicable monsters that were summoned.

Dark World monsters work differently, since each one is dependant by their own effect to be actually special summoned, and not from the effect of one specific card itself, they will form a chain to resolve and they will come out one at a time, not simultaneously, thus not allowing BTH to remove all monsters, since they will come out one at a time.
 
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this is something i have been having trouble with - getting exactly how & when efffects resolve, whether they go on existing chains or start new ones,when multiple effects are triggered do they all go on 1 chain or make multiple chains.. ( especially dark world)...would some one with a great deal of patience please walk me through an example...this came up @ locals the other night...TP has 2 active appropriate's active , one set s/t and no monsters, NTP has a def spirit reaper, a set torriental tribute and a set book of moon....
TP activates the cheerful coffin (no response from NTP) and resolves, discarding sillva,warlord of dark world , goldd, wu-lord of dark world , and gren, tactician of dark world. this (resolution of CC) should trigger (or ignite?) all 3 effects now,
{ is their simultaneous triggering what makes these effects go on ONE NEW chain?} TP/controller decides order of chain links (link 1 gren, 2 goldd, 3 sillva) and then NTP has a chance to respond? or does NTP get a chance to respond to each DW monster effect as it goes on the chain? will link 4 be NTP's first chance to respond (with,say, transmigration prophecy -he wishes)? and with gren's S/T destruction effect being last to resolve - will this prevent Torriental Tribute or bottomless trap hole from being activated after the chain resolves? if a set book of moon was gren's target (declared @ placement on chain link 1) it could only be chained as link 4 or above targetting a monster already on field, correct?
ahh - gotta leave it a bit and clear thoughts...
 
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If several different effects are triggered in the same Chain, they'll all go on the same Chain, one that immediately follows the Chain they triggered in. The effects' owners choose which order to put them in, I believe with the turn player's effects being put on the Chain first.

For your Cheerful Coffin example, all three Dark World monster effects go on the same Chain, in an order of your choice. Then any cards can be Chained to them, just like with any other Chain. Since you had 3 Dark World monsters there, they occupy Chain Links 1, 2 and 3 (always, because they've all been triggered way before the opponent could try Chaining to them, to say nothing of their simultaneous triggering). Your opponent's first chance to join in with this Chain is at Chain Link 4 (handy timing for Miraculous Rebirth).

Since the Special Summon of a Dark World monster in your example happens in Chain Links 3 and 2, and then something else happens in Chain Link 1, neither player can activate a card that responds to a Special Summon. They cannot activate cards during the resolution of a Chain anyway, and they can only activate cards like Torrantial Tribute when the LAST THING TO HAPPEN was a Special Summon. In this case it isn't, therefore you can't.

Gren targets the face-down Book of Moon (or other Quick-Play Spell Card or Trap Card). That card can indeed be Chained to its effect (after any other Dark World monsters go on the Chain). It's entirely a regular Chain.
 
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HorusMaster said:
I was told that if I was the controller of the Dark World monsters and the controller of Morphing Jar and I flipped Morphing Jar (not as a result of battle) that the Dark World monsters are special summoned at the same time and when my opponent activates Bottomless Traphole, that ALL Dark World monsters are destroyed and removed from play. The person cited the ruling for Cyber Jar as their basis for this ruling. What's the truth in THIS situation?
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Doesn't matter who the controller of Morphing Jar is when it is flipped.
This is because after discarding you draw five cards.
Bottomless Trap Hole misses the timing to be activated, but the Dark Worlds will get to be summoned on thier discard, and they get their second effect if the ignition conditions are met.
 
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