"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" vs. "The End of Anubis"

[Kyhotae]

I have gotten into this wonderful discussion with Simon on another forum and I thought I would bring the fun here.

The question is whether "The End of Anubis" would negate the effect of the Normal Spell Card sent to the Graveyard by "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude".

After reading through the rulings and noticing that they were very specific about saying that the effect activates and not the Spell Card, it was asserted that "The End of Anubis" had no power over it because it only negates effects of Spell Cards that activate in the Graveyard. Since there's not Spell Card being activated by "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect, then "The End of Anubis" can't negate it.

The other assertion was simply that it's a Spell Card effect and it's activating in the Graveyard, so "The End of Anubis" will negate it.

So, there you have it. Let us know how you feel.

 

[Kyhotae]

I don't see what you mean. Where, in Diamond Dude's rulings, is it stated that the effect didn't come from a card? It says it activates the effect of the card, and not the card itself. But the effect is still originating from fram a card effect, either the Dude or the Spell Card. I'm afraid the "cardless" theory isn't supported by anything here. No effect can truly be cardless, unless the effect is a game-based effect. And Yu-Gi-Oh! is one game that doesn't have these.

Of course the effect "originates" from the Normal Spell Card, but I dont' think I ever said that it didn't. In fact, I believe I've maintained that the Spell Card is the reference for the effect. The problem is that it doesn't originate from an activating card, it's just an activating effect. An activating effect without an activating a card is simplified to an effect without a card or a cardless effect.

If the Spell card that was sent to the graveyard IS NOT in the graveyard the next turn when DH-DD attempts to activate it's effect, then DH-DD cannot activate the effect of the Spell card. (not activating the Spell card, just the effect. No arguement there.)
DH-DD has to "target" the Spell card in order to know what effect to activate the next turn. If the card is not there, then no effect!
End of Anubis negates effects of Monster cards that target cards in the graveyard.
As such, the effect of End of Anubis will negate DH-DD's effect.

If you had read some of the earlier posts, you would known that it's already settled that this effect targets nothing. Since this is a long thread and not everyone wants to sift through the previous posts, I'll be happy to explain it again.

"Targeting" effects select a target at activation. When "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect activates, there's nothing to target because all the cards are still in the deck (and completely unknown). When his effect resolves (as it states in his rulings), the top card of the deck is revealed and either sent to the Graveyard if it's a Normal Spell Card, or placed on the bottom of the deck if it's not. When the Main Phase of your next turn comes around, it's all effect resolution. As you know, no effect can target at resolution, so "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" isn't targeting a thing.

The only reason you cannot activate the effect if the Spell Card is not still in the Graveyard is because there's no card to reference the effect that's activating. If there's no Spell Card, you can't look at the effect to see what effect you're applying.

None of this changes the fact that you're activating an effect only or that no card is activating in the Graveyard.

 

[masterwoo0]

The problem is that it doesn't originate from an activating card, it's just an activating effect. An activating effect without an activating a card is simplified to an effect without a card or a cardless effect.

The "problem" is, there is no such thing as a "Cardless Effect" as defined anwhere, by Konami, UDE, or anyone else but yourself. Even when I make up a definition, I do not state that it is a reflection of any "real" Game Mechanic.

There is no such thing as a Cardless Effect, other than how you yourself choose to believe it occurs, to reconcile it for your own understanding.

Effects can activate without a "Card Activation". Does the card "Dark Coffin" activate in the Graveyard, or, does the effect activate?

 

[slither]

Effects can activate without a "Card Activation". Does the card "Dark Coffin" activate in the Graveyard, or, does the effect activate?

Totally in agreeance with this little piece of explanation. Regardless of card activation, effects are independant from cards themselves and effects can be activated by more than "playing" a card of the field.

 

[Kyhotae]

The "problem" is, there is no such thing as a "Cardless Effect" as defined anwhere, by Konami, UDE, or anyone else but yourself. Even when I make up a definition, I do not state that it is a reflection of any "real" Game Mechanic.

There is no such thing as a Cardless Effect, other than how you yourself choose to believe it occurs, to reconcile it for your own understanding.

Whether Konami has officially called it a cardless effect or not is really immaterial. If you read the rulings for "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" and some how fail to conclude that this effect activation has nothing to do with the activation of a card, then your grasp of the English language may be in question. They are quite clear that the card is not being activated. But an effect is being activated. Give it any name you want, but the effect is cardless any way you smell the rose.

Effects can activate without a "Card Activation". Does the card "Dark Coffin" activate in the Graveyard, or, does the effect activate?

I clicked on the link that you so graciously provided for "Dark Coffin" and look what I found as the very first entry:

This card is only activated if sent from the field to the Graveyard. There is no way to activate this card while it is Set on the field.

(Emphasis mine.)
According to Konami, the card can and does activate. When does it activate? When it hits the Graveyard after being on the field. It is a card that activates in the Graveyard producing an effect which "The End of Anubis" can negate.

You can keep trying to find effects that activate without card activations if you want, but you won't find any except when you look at "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude". It's the only one, it's the first one and that's why this is a new concept to Yu-Gi-Oh! Every other effect has been generated by activating a card. This effect is activated without activating a card. It's a cardless effect. Or maybe it's "po-tah-toe". Take your pick.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Of course the effect "originates" from the Normal Spell Card, but I dont' think I ever said that it didn't. In fact, I believe I've maintained that the Spell Card is the reference for the effect. The problem is that it doesn't originate from an activating card, it's just an activating effect. An activating effect without an activating a card is simplified to an effect without a card or a cardless effect.

The problem with that theory is, there is no precedence for it. No effects in this game activate without a card as either a proxy or initiator. The explanation your giving doesn't allow for either. "Cardless activation" implies "no card activated", right? So if there's no card activating, where does the Dude even fit into it. Your essentially arguing "effect", without the benefit of "cause". I don't think your quite explaining it the way your imagining it in mind.

 

[masterwoo0]

I clicked on the link that you so graciously provided for "Dark Coffin" and look what I found as the very first entry:
(Emphasis mine.)
According to Konami, the card can and does activate. When does it activate? When it hits the Graveyard after being on the field. It is a card that activates in the Graveyard producing an effect which "The End of Anubis" can negate.
.

Me thinks you may not have read any of my post. I brought that up already. I stated that Dark Coffin's ruling says BOTH.

Why didnt you also include the Ruling directly below it that says

"¢ The effect of "Dark Coffin" is activated in the Graveyard, so its effect is activated even if "Jinzo" is on the field, because "Jinzo" only applies to Trap Cards and Trap Card effects on the field. Also, cards like "Seven Tools of the Bandit" cannot be used against "Dark Coffin".

I also stated that it is nearly impossible to separate the fact that a "card effect" has to be activated from a "card", which is why the FIRST ruling states that

"¢ This card is only activated if sent from the field to the Graveyard. There is no way to activate this card while it is Set on the field.

To say that Dark Coffin has a Card Activation and a Effect Activation, implies that it has a Chain Point, and that because it has a Chain Point, I can remove it from the Graveyard before it resolves, thereby negating the effect because it must be in the Graveyard when the effect resolves.

 

[Kyhotae]

The problem with that theory is, there is no precedence for it. No effects in this game activate without a card as either a proxy or initiator. The explanation your giving doesn't allow for either. "Cardless activation" implies "no card activated", right? So if there's no card activating, where does the Dude even fit into it. Your essentially arguing "effect", without the benefit of "cause". I don't think your quite explaining it the way your imagining it in mind.

I don't see how that's a problem, or even an issue. In order for there to be a precedent, you must be referring to an established situation. Since this is a new situation, there can be no precedent. You're trying to say that because there's no precedent, there can be no more new situations. Apparently that's not true. This is a new interplay between cards and effects. "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" is merely the moderator in the situation. He creates the state that allows you to activate an effect without activating the card. We've never had a card that allows you to activate an effect without activating a card before. THIS is the precedent for this kind of situation/effect interaction.

Why didnt you also include the Ruling directly below it that says

I read it. And I realized that if the card didn't activate, it would have produced no effect to talk about in the second ruling. You can't have the effect until the card is activated, just like almost every other situation in the game. You must activate the card to produce the effect. Now we have a card that lets you activate the effect of another card without activating the card. See? It's all new.

I also stated that it is nearly impossible to separate the fact that a "card effect" has to be activated from a "card", which is why the FIRST ruling states that

Up until "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude", it was completely impossible to separate the effect from the card. Now, you're right, it's only nearly impossible.

To say that Dark Coffin has a Card Activation and a Effect Activation, implies that it has a Chain Point, and that because it has a Chain Point, I can remove it from the Graveyard before it resolves, thereby negating the effect because it must be in the Graveyard when the effect resolves.

I've never made this claim, nor have I implied it. I have simply restated what Konami/UDE has told us for many years. You can't activate an effect without playing a card in some way. You activate the card (which generates the effect), then the effect resolves. You can't show your opponent your "Lightning Vortex" and say "I'm going to activate this effect." until you activate the card by placing it on the field and paying the cost to activate the card. Now Konami/UDE has given us a card that allows us to separate the effect from the card activation (thus doing away with any costs).

Why is it so hard for you guys to see that we've never had this before and that it's completely new?

 

[ygo doc]

I don't see how that's a problem, or even an issue. In order for there to be a precedent, you must be referring to an established situation. Since this is a new situation, there can be no precedent. You're trying to say that because there's no precedent, there can be no more new situations. Apparently that's not true. This is a new interplay between cards and effects. "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" is merely the moderator in the situation. He creates the state that allows you to activate an effect without activating the card. We've never had a card that allows you to activate an effect without activating a card before. THIS is the precedent for this kind of situation/effect interaction.

Bait Doll is similar in how it forces the activation of a trap card. You can chain to the activation of Bait Doll, but you cannot chain to the activation of the trap card effect as that would be cutting into the resolution of Bait Doll's effect. Nor are you forced to pay the activation costs of any trap card affected by Bait Doll.

doc

 

[Kyhotae]

It's close, but it's not the same thing. You're still forcing the activation of a card, but since the activation if forced and not voluntary, you cannot pay any costs. You're definitely not activating the effect of the Trap Card without activating the card.
"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" allows you to activate an effect - or not. It's not forcing anything, it's just giving you the effect to use at your discretion.

 

[Maruno]

Isn't it stated in every published rulebook that to activate a Spell Card, you place it in an empty Spell or Trap Card Zone from your hand (or flip it face-up on the field)? That's simply what card activation means. Surely you don't activate Ultimate Offering when it's already face-up on the field? No. You just activate its effect. Card activation and effect activation have become different things. They used to appear to be exactly the same, but there are many instances of deviation since then.

If a card is activated, it is placed on the field. Card activation is not synonymous with effect activation, not by a long shot. You don't activate the Sinister Serpent card, you only activate its effect. Please understand this.

 

[Kyhotae]

The card has a trigger effect that activates on its own, but make no mistake, a card IS activating and producing an effect. It, like "Dark Coffin" and "Sangan" are cards that activate in the Graveyard. That's how it's "played" to produce the effect. It must be in the Graveyard during your Standby Phase for the card to activate.

 

[novastar]

Even if you are right Kyhotae regarding a "cardless" activation, it still remains to be seen whether that has any bearing on The End of Anubis negating the effect.

If you believe that a "card" itself must be activating in the Graveyard in order for The End of Anubis to negate the effect, then you would also believe that Black Pendant's damage effect would not be negated by The End of Anubis. Since there is no card activating in the Graveyard, only effect.

That is our (you and myself) fundamental disagreement here, i personally don't believe that a card must be activating in the Graveyard at all in order for the effect to be negated. I also believe that this the angle must of us are coming from as well.

If we can't agree on how The End of Anubis works in the first place, then the whole "cardless" theory doesn't matter.

 

[Kyhotae]

Agreed. That is the question that started the discussion. But I doubt we'll get a ruling from UDE about this because it was discussed on a forum and it's doubtful that anyone will use "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" in a sanctioned event because the effect isn't exactly easy to get off. Who knows? We'll just have to wait and see.

Oh, and for the record, "Black Pendant"s effect does not activate until the card is sent to the Graveyard. Again, the card goes to the Graveyard and activates, producing an effect that does 500 Points of damage to the opponent. I believe that "Black Pendant"s damage effect would be negated by "The End of Anubis". It's the effect of a Spell Card that activates in the Graveyard. That's exactly what "The End of Anubis" says it will negate.

 

[novastar]

But it's not card activation, which is the point i'm making, you could not chain Magic Jammer to it.

There is a difference between activating Black Pendant, and activating an effect of Black Pendant. I don't believe in the case of The End of Anubis that is matters who is actually doing to activating.

I also disagree that the triggered activations are infact card activations either... regardless of what UDE's rulings suggest. I could not for instance chain Seven Tools of the Bandit to Dark Coffin when the effect is triggered, indicating that it is straight effect activation. Of course that could be a case of the card activating itself rather than you, or a restriction on cards like Seven Tools/Magic Jammer.

Monster Card Effects cannot be used here, as the game treats them as card activations in all cases.

 

[Kyhotae]

While you can't chain "Magic Jammer" to it, the card is still activating. It's triggering itself when it hits the Graveyard, just like "Mystic Tomato" or "Dark Coffin". They all produce effects because they activate in the Graveyard. "The End of Anubis" has all kinds of power over those.

 

[novastar]

While you can't chain "Magic Jammer" to it, the card is still activating. It's triggering itself when it hits the Graveyard, just like "Mystic Tomato" or "Dark Coffin". They all produce effects because they activate in the Graveyard. "The End of Anubis" has all kinds of power over those.

Yet another point we disagree on.

In terms of Spell and Trap Cards, in general Card Activation is refering to you as the player playing the card to the Field (or Graveyard) from your Hand, or flipped while Set on the Field. Effects can overide this of course (as they can virtually do anything), such as effects like Double Spell and such.

The difference here is that Diamond Dude is playing the card for you (to the Graveyard), and simply activating the effect, thus nullifying any card activation requirements or costs. That is the only difference i see here, and should not have any bearing on EoA, as it is still being activated from the Graveyard.

My feeling is still that the only way EoA would not negate this effect is if it is set up as a delayed state based effect where it's already been "pre-activated" and resolved into play and thus cannot be negated, similar to Last Will.

I already asked on the Board last week, so hopefully we get some sort of answer. I think we've exhausted the valid points here, i'm going to wait and see what they say. If i can find some useful info i'll post it.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I don't see how that's a problem, or even an issue. In order for there to be a precedent, you must be referring to an established situation. Since this is a new situation, there can be no precedent. You're trying to say that because there's no precedent, there can be no more new situations. Apparently that's not true. This is a new interplay between cards and effects. "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" is merely the moderator in the situation. He creates the state that allows you to activate an effect without activating the card. We've never had a card that allows you to activate an effect without activating a card before. THIS is the precedent for this kind of situation/effect interaction.

Yes, we have new precedent for the Dude's effect, but not for the theory your describing, which is the effect resolves from nothingness. If a card isn't directly responsible for the activation, then what is? Your saying to me, as I have interpreted it, that the effect activates and resolves with no accountability to the Dude or to the Spell Card he references. Where in Dude's ruling is it implied that no card is accountable for this effect?

 

[Tkwiget]

I don't see how that's a problem, or even an issue. In order for there to be a precedent, you must be referring to an established situation. Since this is a new situation, there can be no precedent. You're trying to say that because there's no precedent, there can be no more new situations. Apparently that's not true. This is a new interplay between cards and effects. "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" is merely the moderator in the situation. He creates the state that allows you to activate an effect without activating the card. We've never had a card that allows you to activate an effect without activating a card before. THIS is the precedent for this kind of situation/effect interaction.

I read like the last 30-40 posts to get a basic idea of what's being discussed. I sort of understand what Derek, who is Kyhotae btw, is getting at with this. I'll try and make some kind of valid point. =/

Cyclone Boomerang Ruling is quoted to have said:
When a monster equipped with "Cyclone Boomerang" is destroyed by a card effect, its effect starts a chain. "Barrel Behind the Door" can be activated in response.

From what he's saying and how I understand him, he's saying that the part of a card like Cyclone Boomerang that activates while in the Graveyard to destroy all Spell and Trap Cards on the field and deal 100 points of damage per Spell Trap Card destroyed like this would be a "Card Activation." However, the actual "Card Activation" would have been something like this instead.

Player 1 activates Cyclone Boomerang from his/her hand and targets his/her Elemental Hero Wildheart. Cyclone Boomerang resolves and is equipped to Player 1's Elemental Hero Wildheart.

Player 2 activates Smashing Ground from his/her hand. Player 1's Elemental Hero Wildheart is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard. Cyclone Boomerang is destroyed via Game Mechanics. Cyclone Boomerang's effect now activates and destroys all Spell and Trap cards on the field. Cyclone Boomerang also does 100 points of damage per Spell and Trap Card destroyed in this fashion to Player 2.

Cyclone Boomerang's Card Activation was when it was played from the hand onto the field like Player 2's Smashing Ground.

Now let's look at another card that's much older.

Wave-Motion Cannon. This card's Card Activation is when you play it from the hand and hand only. From it being on the field you activate the Effect of Wave-Motion Cannon by paying the cost to activate it, which is sending it to the Graveyard. Now you've activated the Effect of the card and not the Card itself. This is what is called, "Effect Activation."


Soo, yeah, those are just a couple points I wanted to address since I didn't see either of those cards mentioned in the posts I read. I could just suck at this and thinking way too much into the cards, card language, and rulings. =/

 

[novastar]

I've never made this claim, nor have I implied it. I have simply restated what Konami/UDE has told us for many years. You can't activate an effect without playing a card in some way. You activate the card (which generates the effect), then the effect resolves. You can't show your opponent your "Lightning Vortex" and say "I'm going to activate this effect." until you activate the card by placing it on the field and paying the cost to activate the card. Now Konami/UDE has given us a card that allows us to separate the effect from the card activation (thus doing away with any costs).

Why is it so hard for you guys to see that we've never had this before and that it's completely new?

I don't think it's so much a matter of us not seeing your point, yes it's unique, but whether it affects EoA's ability to negate it in anyway is in doubt, because it's still a Graveyard effect that you activate.

Card and Effect have always been different entities, but when one effect negates other effects that activate, whether a card is being activated or not should be irrelevent. This kind of text has always been an indicator of the seperation of card vs. effect.

Continuous Cards are a perfect example of how effects can be activated without a card being activated at the same time, it is more of an isolation of pure effect activation.

So in the case of Diamond Dude, you are simply "using" the effect of the Spell Card, without activating the card, thus isolating that effect activation (similar to a Continuous Card's effect activation). It's all made possible through Diamond Dude's effect of course. It's doesn't change the fact that the card was played to the Graveyard, or that the effect is activating from the Graveyard.

It's an interesting discussion for sure.

 

[ApocalypseAp]

It's funny when rulings conflict. I wonder how Konami/UDE are going to handle this one... if they ever hear about it.