exiled force (is its cost paid at activation)? (3 Threads Merged)

H

heartofthecards

New Member
I understand the effect of this card to be an ignition effect (pay/cost)

whin its effect is activated, when is the cost paid?

I believe it works like this.

summon EF, activate its effect, Pay the cost by sending it to the graveyard, then, select the monster to destroy. (all of this still count as the activation process.


example 1

Sum EF
No response
Tribute EF and select opponents monster
No response
resolve and destroy selected monster

Exanple two

Sum EF
Response....trap hole
Turn player uses turn priority and activates EF's effect then tributes
no response

Resolve Trap hole resolves without effect because the target is no longer there

EF effect destroys opponents monster


Example three
Sum EF
No response
Activate EF effect and tribute and target face up spellcaster (normal monster)
Opponent responds with magical dimention
no response by turn player

resolution
turn player tributes spellcaster for anothe spellcaster and EF resolves without effect because its target is no longer there.
 
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heartof the cards said:
I understand the effect of this card to be an ignition effect (pay/cost)

whin its effect is activated, when is the cost paid?

I believe it works like this.

summon EF, activate its effect, Pay the cost by sending it to the graveyard, then, select the monster to destroy. (all of this still count as the activation process.


example 1

Sum EF
No response
Tribute EF and select opponents monster
No response
resolve and destroy selected monster

Exanple two

Sum EF
Response....Trap Hole
Turn player uses turn priority and activates EF's effect then tributes
no response

Resolve Trap Hole resolves without effect because the target is no longer there

EF effect destroys opponents monster


Example three
Sum EF
No response
Activate EF effect and tribute and target face up spellcaster (normal monster)
Opponent responds with magical dimention
no response by turn player

resolution
turn player tributes spellcaster for anothe spellcaster and EF resolves without effect because its target is no longer there.
Click to expand...
You are right here. I've got nothing to add. The 'cost' is paid while on the field (tributing it), while the effect resolves in the Graveyard.
(The End of Anubis, anyone? ;)) *ducks under a Giant Kozaky*
 
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heartofthecards said:
I understand the effect of this card to be an ignition effect (pay/cost)

whin its effect is activated, when is the cost paid?

I believe it works like this.

summon EF, activate its effect, Pay the cost by sending it to the graveyard, then, select the monster to destroy.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much how it works.
 
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I understand the effect of this card to be an ignition effect (pay/cost)

whin its effect is activated, when is the cost paid?

I believe it works like this.

summon EF, activate its effect, Pay the cost by sending it to the graveyard, then, select the monster to destroy. (all of this still count as the activation process.


example 1

Sum EF
No response
Tribute EF and select opponents monster
No response
resolve and destroy selected monster

Exanple two

Sum EF
Response....Trap Hole
Turn player uses turn priority and activates EF's effect then tributes
no response

Resolve Trap Hole resolves without effect because the target is no longer there

EF effect destroys opponents monster


Example three
Sum EF
No response
Activate EF effect and tribute and target face up spellcaster (normal monster)
Opponent responds with magical dimention
no response by turn player

resolution
turn player tributes spellcaster for anothe spellcaster and EF resolves without effect because its target is no longer there.
Click to expand...
Well, you obviously understand Exiled Force's effect quite well.

However, priority does not work even remotely similar to the way it is set up in your examples. Upon summoning, the summoning player chooses to either activate an effect, or pass. You don't first check to see if the opponent has a respone. So everywhere you've put "no response" after the summon is wrong, there shouldn't be a check for response there.
 
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heartofthecards said:
I understand the effect of this card to be an ignition effect (pay/cost)

whin its effect is activated, when is the cost paid?

I believe it works like this.

summon EF, activate its effect, Pay the cost by sending it to the graveyard, then, select the monster to destroy. (all of this still count as the activation process.


example 1

Sum EF
No response
Tribute EF and select opponents monster
No response
resolve and destroy selected monster

Exanple two

Sum EF
Response....Trap Hole
Turn player uses turn priority and activates EF's effect then tributes
no response

Resolve Trap Hole resolves without effect because the target is no longer there

EF effect destroys opponents monster


Example three
Sum EF
No response
Activate EF effect and tribute and target face up spellcaster (normal monster)
Opponent responds with magical dimention
no response by turn player

resolution
turn player tributes spellcaster for anothe spellcaster and EF resolves without effect because its target is no longer there.
Click to expand...
you have it right, except for the Summon part.
when you summon a monster, you have priority to activate its effect BEFORE your opponent can respond to the summon, so your examples would be like this:

Ex.1
Summon 'Exiled Force'
uses priority to activate the effect, tribute and select target now.
opponent can respond at this point.
resolve the chain.

Ex.2
Summon 'Exiled Force'
uses priority to activate the effect, tribute and select target now.
opponent can respond at this point ('Trap Hole' CAN'T be activated, because 'Exiled Force' is not on the field anymore).
resolve the chain.

Ex.3
Summon 'Exiled Force'
uses priority to activate the effect, tribute and select target now.
opponent can respond at this point (he can chain with 'Magical Dimension' now)
resolve the chain ('Magical Dimension' resolves, tribute one monster, which is probably the one targeted by 'Exiled Force', and perform the rest of the effect. Then 'Exiled Force' resolves without effect).
 
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Priority (the results of being overzealous)

I understand fully the rules for turn player priority.
what I am questioning are the results of card activated in a situation?

Ex 1 There is a face up normal monster on the opponents side of the field)

Summon
trap hole
turn priority, activate exiled forces effect then tribute (still at activation stage)

Resolution
trap hole resolves without effect because its target is no longer there
exile destroys face up monster

QUESTION.....WILL TRAP HOLE RESOLVE WITHOUT EFFECT AND WHY

Ex2
Sum hand of nepthis with a scape token on field
response Torrential
turn player chooses turn priority
turn playe bring out pheonix
resolution torrential destroys everything.

QUESTION....WILL TORRENTIAL DESTROY EVERYTHING AND WHY?
 
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heartofthecards said:
I understand fully the rules for turn player priority.
what I am questioning are the results of card activated in a situation?

Ex 1 There is a face up normal monster on the opponents side of the field)

Summon
Trap Hole
turn priority, activate Exiled Forces effect then tribute (still at activation stage)

Resolution
Trap Hole resolves without effect because its target is no longer there
exile destroys face up monster

QUESTION.....WILL Trap Hole RESOLVE WITHOUT EFFECT AND WHY

Ex2
Sum hand of nepthis with a scape token on field
response Torrential
turn player chooses turn priority
turn playe bring out pheonix
resolution torrential destroys everything.

QUESTION....WILL TORRENTIAL DESTROY EVERYTHING AND WHY?
Click to expand...
No, you don't. I'm sorry, but you just blatantly don't get priority.

Trap Hole was an illegal activation. It doesn't resolve without effect because it doesn't resolve because it was never activated to begin with.

Summon Exiled Force
Activate his effect

Trap Hole cannot be activated, because there's no monster on the field.

Resolve Exiled
 
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heartofthecards said:
I understand fully the rules for turn player priority.
what I am questioning are the results of card activated in a situation?

Ex 1 There is a face up normal monster on the opponents side of the field)

Summon
Trap Hole
turn priority, activate Exiled Forces effect then tribute (still at activation stage)

Resolution
Trap Hole resolves without effect because its target is no longer there
exile destroys face up monster

QUESTION.....WILL Trap Hole RESOLVE WITHOUT EFFECT AND WHY
Click to expand...
Cropz explained this one on your other thread.

heartofthecards said:
Ex2
Sum hand of nepthis with a scape token on field
response Torrential
turn player chooses turn priority
turn playe bring out pheonix
resolution torrential destroys everything.

QUESTION....WILL TORRENTIAL DESTROY EVERYTHING AND WHY?
Click to expand...
You've got the response timing backwards for both situations.

Remember, the Turn Player gets to respond 1st, THEN the opponent can respond. If the opponent 'jumps the gun' and does not wait for you to use your Priority, then a game state 'rewind' occurs and the card they activated gets put back face-down, but now YOU know what it is. You now have the opportunity to use your Priority to respond to your summon, THEN they can respond with their card, IF they still want to.
 
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As a kind of suppliment to what they all said:
heartofthecards said:
example 1

Sum EF
No response
Tribute EF and select opponents monster
No response
resolve and destroy selected monster
Click to expand...
After the summon of Exiled Force, you, as the turn player, retain priority to activate any Monster Effects on your side of the field or any Spell Speed 2+ Effects.

This is why your opponent cannot chain Trap Hole in response to Exiled Force's summon if you choose to activate the effect. You always get the choice to activate it before he can respond to the summon, and if you do, there will be no monster on the field to target with Trap Hole.
Exanple two

Sum EF
Response....Trap Hole
Turn player uses turn priority and activates EF's effect then tributes
no response

Resolve Trap Hole resolves without effect because the target is no longer there

EF effect destroys opponents monster
Click to expand...
You see the problem with this scenario, then? You retain priority after the summon of Exiled to use his effect or not. Exiled could never be used in this way, because priority does not make Exiled's effect a Spell Speed 2. Notice in this example your waiting to activate his effect AFTER your opponent activates Trap Hole. This simply cannot be done, because your trying to chain a Spell Speed 1 to a Spell Speed 2 effect. (Thinks about this. If your activating Exiled Force's effect after the activation of Trap Hole, wouldn't Exiled's effect resolve first? This just can't be done in a proper chain, though.)

What priority does is give you the choice to use the effect or not, BEFORE your oppont can respond to the summon. If you pass on the priority, and allow your opponent to respond with Trap Hole, you no longer can activate Exiled Force's effect, because his Spell Speed is too slow and can no longer be placed on the chain.

Example three
Sum EF
No response
Activate EF effect and tribute and target face up spellcaster (normal monster)
Opponent responds with magical dimention
no response by turn player

resolution
turn player tributes spellcaster for anothe spellcaster and EF resolves without effect because its target is no longer there.
Click to expand...
Your correct on everything, except again, there is no response window between the fully resolved summon and your priority. Magical Dimension resolves first and can destroy a monster on your opponent's side of the field, but can't touched Exiled because it's in the Graveyard already. Then Exiled Force's effect resolves and, as you stated, it's lost it's target and resolves for no effect.

Hope that helps.


EDIT: Hey! I type slow <grumble>
 
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Priority Part 2(the results of being overzealous)

I'm pessed for time and that is why part 2 is being written befor responses are posted.

here is my thinking and please help me wist prompt and direct responses

(I have a face up normal monster)

I see exiled force, I know the effect will be activated to destroy my monster, should I ask (DO YOU USE YOUR TURN PRIORITY?)

POSSIBLE RESULT
Yes, Then I save my trap hole
No, then I use my trap hole

I see hand of nephthis and a scape goat token
(do you.........)

Results
Yes, pheonix comes out and I torrential or bottomless
No, I torrential

Here is the problem

what will happen to trap hole (example1) and torrential and bottomless (example two) if they are activated prior to turn priority being used? Is it possible for the effects to resolve normall?Why? Will they resolve without effect?Why?
 
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heartofthecards said:
I'm pessed for time and that is why part 2 is being written befor responses are posted.

here is my thinking and please help me wist prompt and direct responses

(I have a face up normal monster)

I see Exiled Force, I know the effect will be activated to destroy my monster, should I ask (DO YOU USE YOUR TURN PRIORITY?)

POSSIBLE RESULT
Yes, Then I save my Trap Hole
No, then I use my Trap Hole

I see hand of nephthis and a scape goat token
(do you.........)

Results
Yes, pheonix comes out and I torrential or bottomless
No, I torrential

Here is the problem

what will happen to Trap Hole (example1) and torrential and bottomless (example two) if they are activated prior to turn priority being used? Is it possible for the effects to resolve normall?Why? Will they resolve without effect?Why?
Click to expand...
It is definitely the correct thing to do any time you or your opponent summons a monster. You should ALWAYS verify if they will use their Priority, or announce that you WILL use your Priority. You as the summoning player should NEVER wait for your opponent to respond to the summon and then claim Priority. That could be construed at cheating since you now know what your opponent's face-down Spell/Trap was.

Go back and read the responses to your other threads and I believe all of your questions on this one have already been answered...lol.
 
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what will happen to Trap Hole (example1) and torrential and bottomless (example two) if they are activated prior to turn priority being used?
Click to expand...
They can't be. The question has no answer, because the premise is inconceivable. You simply cannot activate these cards before your opponent gets a chance to respond, it's that simple, no exceptions. The opponent gets first crack at it, you don't. It's not a suggestion, it's a rule.
 
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heartofthecards said:
I'm pessed for time and that is why part 2 is being written befor responses are posted.

here is my thinking and please help me wist prompt and direct responses

(I have a face up normal monster)

I see Exiled Force, I know the effect will be activated to destroy my monster, should I ask (DO YOU USE YOUR TURN PRIORITY?)

POSSIBLE RESULT
Yes, Then I save my Trap Hole
No, then I use my Trap Hole

I see hand of nephthis and a scape goat token
(do you.........)

Results
Yes, pheonix comes out and I torrential or bottomless
No, I torrential

Here is the problem

what will happen to Trap Hole (example1) and torrential and bottomless (example two) if they are activated prior to turn priority being used? Is it possible for the effects to resolve normall?Why? Will they resolve without effect?Why?
Click to expand...
Skey mentions this in your other thread. A player cannot trmaple over a players priority. If he "shows his hand" or in this case his set Trap Cards before letting you use your priority then the game must be rewound back to when the summon fully resolved.

The non-turn player can always ask the turn player if he plans on using his priority. The point is, if the non-turn player jumps the gun and tries to activate effects without allowing you you opportunity to use your priority, all he's done is reveal what he was going to do and you now have foreknowlege of what's in his Spell/Trap Zones. The game gets rewound back to when you had priority and you can now make a more informed desicion then you could before.

EDIT: Like I said. I type slow. <grumble>
 
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reponse to exiled force

Here in lies the problem and the question. How do you resolve this?
After the summoning the opponent quickly activates Trap Hole without giving the turn player a chance to use the turn priority.

Even though the turn playe has the right to activate the card effect befor the opponent can respond, what happens here?

How would a judge rule?

I'm not a judge but here is my thought.

Turn player can activate Exiled Forces effect befor you activate Trap Hole. (O.K)

Since Trap Hole was activated and you didnt ask i fpriority is being used, it resolves without effect.
 
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heartofthecards said:
Here in lies the problem and the question. How do you resolve this?
After the summoning the opponent quickly activates Trap Hole without giving the turn player a chance to use the turn priority.

Even though the turn playe has the right to activate the card effect befor the opponent can respond, what happens here?

How would a judge rule?

I'm not a judge but here is my thought.

Turn player can activate Exiled Forces effect befor you activate Trap Hole. (O.K)

Since Trap Hole was activated and you didnt ask i fpriority is being used, it resolves without effect.
Click to expand...
No, no, and no.

It doesn't, you can't, no one, what? Pie.

It doesn't activate. That simple. It just goes face down again.
 
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This was covered in your other thread as well.

If he jumps the gun and activates the trap before allowing you to use your priority, a Judge would make you both rewind the game to when you still had it. In other words, his Trap Hole goes goes back face-down and you now have knowlege of a card in his Spell/Trap Zone. He simply cannot tread on your priority. You always retain priority until you use it or pass it to your opponent. You can now chose to activate Exiled Force's effect.
 
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