fusion gate... card registry ruling

E

exiledforcefreak

RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
Fusion Gate states:

Card Text
As long as this card remains face-up on the field, a Fusion Monster can be Special Summoned without using "Polymerization". The Fusion-Material Monsters used in the Fusion are not sent to the Graveyard, but are removed from play.

the card registry states:
Fusion Monsters Special Summoned without "Polymerization" while "Fusion Gate" is on the field are still considered properly Summoned by a Fusion Summon.


acording to the card text this would be incorrect. if this were the case the card text would state:

Card Text
As long as this card remains face-up on the field, a Fusion Monster can be Fusion Summoned without using "Polymerization". The Fusion-Material Monsters used in the Fusion are not sent to the Graveyard, but are removed from play.

Am I missing something here?
 
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UAGH! I'm confused! @_@!

I Say:
You can't chain to the summoning, Fusion Gate states a new way to summon the Fusion monsters.
I would compare it to Makyura the Destructor's effect. When he goes to the graveyard, you can activate cards from your hand for the rest of the turn (new way to use things); but you don't say you want to use Makyura's effect, you just simply activate the trap from your hand.

Horn of Heaven would be able to negate the summoning.

I hope this helps :D
 
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Okey dokey another summary just to keep things cooking.

Fusion Summons are counted as Special Summons - fine and groovy, just wAnted to make sure no-one was inventing a new type of summon :).

The Horn of Heaven thing... In order to negate the summon via CotH and Monster Reborn you would of course have to negate the effect of the magic/trap card used. For a monster summoned via it's own effect it is open season for HoH. Fair enough.
 
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novastar said:
The reason you cannot use Horn of Heaven on the majority of those effects is because you cannot chain it to an effect that Special Summons. Horn of Heaven has to "respond" to a summon declaration.

Since Fusion Gate is not an activated effect, you should be able to respond to the summon declaration with Horn of Heaven. Just as the "self-summoning" effects do not use the chain.

I fail to see how being an outside effect has anything to do with it. That is why i hate UDE's explainations sometimes.
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Actually, this ruling would say you are incorrect, and you have no proof that it was ever otherwise. On the other hand, Vampire Lord is ALSO by effect, but it can be negated, which supports this ruling.

And no, Horn of Heaven can't be used on a monster Fusion Gated.
 
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Raijinili said:
Actually, this ruling would say you are incorrect, and you have no proof that it was ever otherwise. On the other hand, Vampire Lord is ALSO by effect, but it can be negated, which supports this ruling.

And no, Horn of Heaven can't be used on a monster Fusion Gated.
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Proof? i'm not sure as to what proof to provide?

You cannot chain Horn of Heaven to a chained (activated) effect that Special Summons, like for instance Monster Reborn, or Premature Burial, or the monster effects like Cyber Jar, Mystic Tomato etc. The only reason Solemn Judgment works is because you can chain it to the Spell/Trap itself to negate the summon.

As far as Vampire Lord (and now Phoenix), i've personally never understood just "how" that worked to begin with. If it is indeed an activated Trigger, then he should never leave the Graveyard and you should never be able to use Solemn or Horn on it, i mean you can't even use them on activated Monster Effects to begin with. And how in the world does Divine Wrath destroy a monster that never leaves the Graveyard? Once again flawed mechanics on the part of UDE/Konami. If you like you can show me how it works, take a shot... but i highly doubt it...

We both agree that Fusion Gate's effect is Continuous so I fail to see how an outside effect is a factor here, summons from hand are not activated effects (Dark Necro etc.) so Horn can respond. The Bottom Line being the Horn is not supposed to be chained to an effect, it is supposed to "respond" to a summon. I see Fusion Gate as an identical effect to the XYZ's effect, it becomes part of the Summon Conditions, which IS "effect" but not activated. It is rediculous that you CAN use Horn on the XYZ's, but not on a monster fused by Fusion Gate... you effectively are doing the exact same thing. To say that the effect isn't internal so Horn can't be used doesn't make any sense.

These are my thoughts, the Official Ruling is the opposite, but it doesn't mean that doesn't make it right
 
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Prove this:
The reason you cannot use Horn of Heaven on the majority of those effects is because you cannot chain it to an effect that Special Summons. Horn of Heaven has to "respond" to a summon declaration.
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Prove that it was because the effect had a spell speed and went on the chain, instead of being because it was an effect other than the monster's own. Prove that there's a contradiction in the ruling of Nephthys against previous rulings.
 
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Raijinili said:
Prove that it was because the effect had a spell speed and went on the chain, instead of being because it was an effect other than the monster's own. Prove that there's a contradiction in the ruling of Nephthys against previous rulings.
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Simple mechanics...

You can't cut into the resolution of a chainable effect with a Counter Trap, so Horn of Heaven shouldn't be mechanically able to negate Vampire Lord, Phoenix or any other monster Special Summoning itself in the same fashion.


Lets view the rest of the ruling:
"Solemn Judgement" can be used to negate and destroy "Polymerization," "Monster Reborn," "Elegant Egotist," "Ritual Spell Cards," "Call of the Haunted," etc. "Solemn Judgment" has no issue with negating Spell and Trap Cards.

But if you wait and allow these cards to resolve and Special Summon the monster "Solemn Judgment" will no longer be able to negate the Summon.
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So if you let the effect resolve, you have missed timing, and the monster is now successfully summoned. The same should hold true for Horn of Heaven, what does having an internal effect or not have to do with anything, simple mechanics shows you that it's not possible to negate chainable effects with Horn of Heaven

So what does this mean? It means that if the monster is Special Summoned by ANOTHER card's effect and you don't want that monster Special Summoned, you need to stop the card that will cause the monster to be Special Summoned in the first place.
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No Curtis, it doesn't mean that... it means that when a monster resolves into play inside the resolution of an effect you should not be able to use Horn of Heaven, regardless of whether it's an internal effect or not.


And going back...
You CAN use "Horn of Heaven" to negate a Special Summon that was achieved using the monster's own effect such as "Dark Necrofear," "Gate Guardian," "The Fiend Megacyber," "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End," "Archlord Zerato," etc.
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All of the above mentioned monsters here are Special Summons from Hand, and do not use the chain.

Why is this mechanically any different from a monster Fusion Gate'd. Why? because it's an outside effect instead of an internal one? it doesn't add up.

Examples:

<Main Phase>

~ TP removes 3 Fiend-Type monsters and declares the Special Summon of Dark Necrofear.

* This is perfect timing for Horn of Heaven

[OP Chain Link 1] Horn of Heaven (Tribute 1 monster)

* Horn of Heaven is directly responding to the summon. Just like Negate Attack directly responds to an attack declaration. You don't "chain" it.


<Standby Phase>

~ TP decides to Trigger V-Lord's effect

[TP Chain Link 1] Vampire Lord

* How in the world can you chain Horn of Heaven?

- Vampire Lord hasn't even left the Graveyard yet.
- You are not "responding" you a Special Summon here, you are responding to an effect activation.
- Royal Oppression can chained to negate Special Summon "effects" like this because it specifically states so, Horn of Heaven does not.
- Another flaw in the ruling is the destruction of V-Lord, how can it be destroyed if it is still in the Graveyard.

In the end, if Konami wants it this way... so be it. These are my thoughts on why it is flawed. It doesn't add up for me, and all they can say is "it's because the effect is internal"...
 
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chaosruler said:
beautiful speech, novastar

another brilliant post by novastar :D

-chaosruler
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The problem is that according to the rulings i'm incorrect. I'm just expressing my feelings on why i think the ruling is wrong.

Unfortunately, we as gamers have no influence in YGO, not like we do in Vs.
 
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they just made an errata to replect the ruling, the card now states:

Fusion Gate
(Labyrinth of Nightmare)
As long as this card remains face-up on the field, a Fusion Monster can be Fusion Summoned without using "Polymerization". The Fusion Material monsters used in the Fusion Summon are not sent to the Graveyard, but are removed from play.
 
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