Future Fusion / Overload Fusion templting

J

John Danker

Administrator
I'm still a little fuzzy on what about Future Fusion and Overload template out to show weather or not sending / removing monsters is a cost. I've never been very good at recognizing templating when I see it but when explained to me it make sense....I'm SO much more of a blueprint person than a text person!

Help me out here? What designates if these actions are a cost or not?
 
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Costs are usually stated at the beginning of a cards effect.

Costs are usually something like:

- Discarding card(s) from your hand
- Tributing a monster(s)

Effects are usually printed at the end of the text. Basically what you get after paying.

e.g

Monster Reincarnation
Normal Spell

Discard 1 card from your hand. Add 1 Monster Card from your Graveyard to your hand.

There are a few odd ones such as Graceful Chairty

Graceful Charity
Normal Spell

Draw 3 cards from your Deck, then discard any 2 cards from your hand.


The sending of monsters from your deck to the graveyard via Future Fusion and removing from play machine monsters from your graveyard via Overload Fusion appear to be costs to me.
 
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Thanks for your input snezzlebear, I appreciate your effort, however, when looking at the two cards in question it isn't that apparent. I understand and know the information that you brought up but I know sending monsters for Future Fusion isn't a cost, yet it's the first line (I'm assuming Overload Fusion follows suit in that removing monsters isn't a cost either) So my question is, what about Future Fusion tells me that the first line isn't a cost? (and if my assumption is correct with Overload Fusion what about it's first line tells me it isn't a cost to remove monsters)
 
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In case of Overload Fusion you can see the "and" between removing and summonig. This indicates that they happen at the same time, and since you know the summon is at resolution the RFG will be too.

However in case of Future Fusion it's not so obvious. The send + select are connected by an "and" but either could be cost.
I'd say the search your deck part could indicate that it's an effect - you usually dont search your deck at activation, right?
 
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Unfortunately, John, there really isn't anything that definitively explains why, other than it is consistent with the rulings for "Polymerization" and "Fusion Gate". Yes, the wording matches the 'generic' template of a cost, but Konami has ruled otherwise.
 
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Can we just be over-simplific and say that by nature, a Fusion Summon does not have a cost, because the Monsters are being fused together? While cards that Special Summon fusion Monsters would involve a cost (the Hex-Sealed Fusion cards come to mind. Is not Tributing them a cost?) That's my guess.
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Can we just be over-simplific and say that by nature, a Fusion Summon does not have a cost, because the Monsters are being fused together? While cards that Special Summon fusion Monsters would involve a cost (the Hex-Sealed Fusion cards come to mind. Is not Tributing them a cost?) That's my guess.
Click to expand...


That sounds good to me :D
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Can we just be over-simplific and say that by nature, a Fusion Summon does not have a cost, because the Monsters are being fused together? While cards that Special Summon fusion Monsters would involve a cost (the Hex-Sealed Fusion cards come to mind. Is not Tributing them a cost?) That's my guess.
Click to expand...
That would be the 'generic' rule being put forth by Konami at this time...yes.
 
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i say a comparable effect is that of The Creator. his effect is to special summon a monster from your grave and the sending of one card from your hand to the grave. that is one whole effect.
if creator gets divine wrath'd, neither a monster is summoned nor is a card sent to the grave.

similarly future fusion's effect is, send 5 cards to the grave, and in 2 turns, fusion summon a monster. if future fusion's activation is negated, the pending fusion summon never happens as neither does the sending of the 5 monsters.

edit: sorry if this doesn't help you figure out which effects are costs.
 
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The text of The Creator actually follows the same rule.
_The Creator said:
Send 1 card from your hand to the Graveyard and Special Summon the selected monster.
Click to expand...
The "and" shows that both parts happen at the same time, and since summoning happens at resolution the sending will too. I said the same in my earlier post.
 
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Fury said:
The text of The Creator actually follows the same rule.
The "and" shows that both parts happen at the same time, and since summoning happens at resolution the sending will too. I said the same in my earlier post.
Click to expand...

I see, yes, and I agree with your "and" post; however, with The Creator as an expample, since the "and" part comes right after a period with a diffinitive targeting, it is more obvious (it would be obvious if templating was standard and consistant) that they are both part of the effect.

The Creator

"Once per turn, you can select 1 monster from your Graveyard."
<this is the activation, and where any cost would usually go. Full stop; next sentence...>

"Send 1 card from your hand to the Graveyard and Special Summon the selected monster." <This is the effect>

What John is musing, is that Fusion Summon texts seem to follow the formats of cards with costs. That is, they put the "sending" right up front. All would be right with the world if it said, "After the activation of this card, send..." Then is would be obvious that it is not a cost. If they had some indication that the sending occured during resolution, we could all kick back, smile and enjoy our Shonen Jumps in peace.
 
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Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. As well all know the English text cards Konami mandates be a direct translation making it very difficult to do this.

I'd also like them to put a little symbol on cards that target as well as I think that would take a lot of the misunderstandings out of things....we can all dream can't we? <laffin>
 
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John Danker said:
Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. As well all know the English text cards Konami mandates be a direct translation making it very difficult to do this.

I'd also like them to put a little symbol on cards that target as well as I think that would take a lot of the misunderstandings out of things....we can all dream can't we? <laffin>
Click to expand...

Maybe we could have that in RONIN/Netrepâ„¢. A little side slot, either a list, like Restricted, or a little check mark, or something (of course multi-effects can be troublesome, but they're usually in the rules. Anyway, here is what a little RONIN search turned up:

There seem to be four texts about sending. "Send "¦.. [full stop]." "By sending"¦.." and "Send "¦[in order]to"¦" (all three seem to indicate cost) and then (as Fury has so very well pointed out) "Send"¦, and"¦" which seems to point to no cost. Contact (which has no official ruling) and Destruction of Destiny (which does) are the only 2 non-fusion cards I found that actually start their texts with the "Send"¦., and"¦" formula. I think we have a winner! Well done Fury!

Contact
Normal Spell

Send all "Chrysalis" monsters you control to the Graveyard, and Special Summon 1 monster from your hand or Deck that is written in the card text of those cards.

Destruction of Destiny
Normal Trap


Send 3 cards from the top of your Deck to the Graveyard, and take 1000 damage for each Spell or Trap Card sent to the Graveyard this way.

"¢ Sending 3 cards from the top of your Deck to the Graveyard is part of the effect of "Destruction of Destiny". It is not a cost.

<edit: There, cleaned it up a bit>
 
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Thanks :)

I found another word in Beckoning Light: "then".
It also indicates that the 2 parts are executed at the same time. They could have used "and" instead but they probably wanted to emphasize the order of these actions more. Personally I dont think it was nessesary.

Discard your hand and add LIGHT monsters from your graveyard to your hand equal to the number of cards you discarded.

This wording means the same, doesnt it?

Another important thing about this card is that you have to have enought LIGHT monsters in the grave before activating the card and even before discarding your hand. Using "and" emphasizes more that the 2 parts have to be able to resolve independently.
 
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What I've noticed about cards who's effect appears as though it might be a cost but are not is that the first sentence has a comma after it where as card effects that are costs, the cost portion of the card text ends with a period....now, I haven't examined ALL such cards but it seems to be a pattern.
 
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From the official UDE Advanced Game Play FAQ:

Fusion Material Monsters used in a Fusion Summon are NOT a cost.

It's a general ruling for Fusion Summons, so it doesn't have to be explicitly mentioned in the card text, as long as it's clearly stated that the monsters are used as Fusion Material Monster for a Fusion Summon :)
 
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John Danker said:
Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying. As well all know the English text cards Konami mandates be a direct translation making it very difficult to do this.

I'd also like them to put a little symbol on cards that target as well as I think that would take a lot of the misunderstandings out of things....we can all dream can't we? <laffin>
Click to expand...
I do remember a few days ago something bout how the translation of the cards from Japanese to English is very sketchy as they do not have things like "we, your etc" I'll try to find the link and post it here for you.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4686#4686

I know it doesn't pertain to the question exactly but It's in relevance to the wording of card text and yeah thought it might be of some use :)
 
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