gemini + skill drain

[1cup]

after doing some digging (here: http://www.cogonline.net/threads.48206 and at the ude board), i wonder if there was ever an official ruling given.

correct me if i'm wrong, there's 2 starting scenarios that raises questions.
(note: some of this will probably be my own thoughts as i try to walk through this)

Scenario A
ntp has skill drain set on his field
tp special summons a gemini monster
ntp activates skill drain and it resolves.

A1. is tp's gemini monster still a normal monster making it eligible for effects like creature seizure, justi-break?

A1b. assuming that tp's gemini monster is still a normal monster, can tp then normal summon the gemini monster for it to gain its effect, to thus have it negated, making the gemini monster an effect monster with its effect negated? (keeping in mind, if this were possible, tp is using a monster effect while skill drain is out)

A2. later in the same turn, skill drain is removed from the field. if the gemini monster was NOT re-summoned to gain its effect, upon skill drain leaving the gemini monster will continue to be a normal monster, correct?

A2b. following A1b and the gemini monster was-resummoned to become an effect monster with a negated effect, skill drain leaves the field. and thus, the gemini monster now gains its effect, correct?


Scenario B
Skill drain is already active on the field
tp special summons a gemini monster

B1. assuming the monster came from tp's graveyard, will tp's monster immediately become an effect monster with its effects negated? or will it stay a normal monster because while it was in the graveyard, it is a normal monster and tp is special summoning a normal monster.

B2. same scenario, but instead of being special summoned from the graveyard, tp special summons from his hand. will the gemini be a normal monster or will it be a negated-effect effect monster?

​

and for reference

Skill Drain
Pay 1000 Life Points. As long as this card remains on the field, the effects of all face-up Effect Monsters on the field are negated.
(from netrep.net as of 12/11/07)

​

 

[HorusMaster]

The effect that they are treated as 'normal' monsters before being normal summoned the second time does not make Gemini monsters "normal" monsters. You cannot use Justi-Break or other cards that are restricted to "normal" monsters because Gemini monsters are still considered "effect" monsters.

 

[1cup]

sorry to be a skeptic, but is there proof of this assertion?
from what i read:

King Pyron
Effect Monster (Pyro / FIRE / 5 Stars / ATK 1500 / DEF 500)

This card is treated as a Normal Monster while face-up on the field or in the Graveyard. While this card is face-up on the field, you can Normal Summon it to have it be treated as an Effect Monster with this effect:
• Once per turn, you can inflict 1000 damage to your opponent.


Justi-Break
Normal Trap

Activate only when your opponent declares an attack against a face-up Normal Monster on your side of the field. Destroy all monsters on the field, except face-up Attack Position Normal Monsters.
​

so you're telling me these two cards don't play nice?
as far as i can tell, there is no specification that says "a physically yellow card, not an effect monster affecting itself to be a normal monster"

after all
embodiment of apophis can be destroyed by monster destroying effects: mirror force, lightning vortex, fissure even though its text says:

Embodiment of Apophis
Continuous Trap

You can only activate this card during a Main Phase. After activation, this card is treated as a Normal Monster Card (Reptile-Type/EARTH/Level 4/ATK 1600/DEF 1800), and is Special Summoned to your Monster Card Zone. (This card is also still treated as a Trap Card.)

​

and embodiment of apophis is technically a trap card that affects itself to be a monster.

 

[Maruno]

The effect that they are treated as 'normal' monsters before being normal summoned the second time does not make Gemini monsters "normal" monsters. You cannot use Justi-Break or other cards that are restricted to "normal" monsters because Gemini monsters are still considered "effect" monsters.

This is wrong. The effect most certainly DOES make Gemini monsters Normal monsters. That's the whole point. They ARE treated as Normal monsters, and are NOT treated as Effect Monsters because of this effect.

Scenario A
ntp has skill drain set on his field
tp special summons a gemini monster
ntp activates skill drain and it resolves.

A1. is tp's gemini monster still a normal monster making it eligible for effects like creature seizure, justi-break?

A1b. assuming that tp's gemini monster is still a normal monster, can tp then normal summon the gemini monster for it to gain its effect, to thus have it negated, making the gemini monster an effect monster with its effect negated? (keeping in mind, if this were possible, tp is using a monster effect while skill drain is out)

A2. later in the same turn, skill drain is removed from the field. if the gemini monster was NOT re-summoned to gain its effect, upon skill drain leaving the gemini monster will continue to be a normal monster, correct?

A2b. following A1b and the gemini monster was-resummoned to become an effect monster with a negated effect, skill drain leaves the field. and thus, the gemini monster now gains its effect, correct?

A1: The Gemini monster is Summoned, and its effect makes it a Normal Monster Card. Skill Drain resolves, negating the effects of all Effect Monsters. However, the Gemini monster is a Normal monster, and thus is not affected by Skill Drain. The Gemini monster remains a Normal Monster Card. You can use Justi-Break and Creature Seizure on it.

A1b: A Gemini monster can be Second Summoned while Skill Drain is active. However, when it is, it becomes an Effect Monster Card, and any effect it may gain (Goggle Golem's changing of its original ATK, for example) is negated (Goggle Golem will remain at 1500 ATK, but is now an Effect Monster Card). If the Normal Summon (Second Summon) of the Gemini monster is an effect of the Gemini monster (which I'm not sure about - it doesn't use the Chain, and doesn't look Continuous to me) (if it is, then it is the effect of a Normal Monster Card, which Skill Drain doesn't care about nor affect), the monster is considered a Normal Monster Card at the time you use the effect. By the time Skill Drain sees an Effect Monster Card to negate, the Second Summon has already happened.

A2: The Gemini monster would go back to whichever state it was in before Skill Drain was activated. It remembers whether it has been Second Summoned or not, and behaves appropriately.

A2b: Same answer.

Scenario B
Skill drain is already active on the field
tp special summons a gemini monster

B1. assuming the monster came from tp's graveyard, will tp's monster immediately become an effect monster with its effects negated? or will it stay a normal monster because while it was in the graveyard, it is a normal monster and tp is special summoning a normal monster.

B2. same scenario, but instead of being special summoned from the graveyard, tp special summons from his hand. will the gemini be a normal monster or will it be a negated-effect effect monster?

B1: Not sure.

B2: The effect that makes the Gemini monster a Normal monster would become active after it was Summoned to the field. However, Skill Drain is already active, and negates this effect. So the Gemini monster would be an Effect monster, but has NOT been Second Summoned, and as such does NOT have its "Gemini bonus" effect.




I think I summarised this in my post in the thread you mentioned:

If the Gemini monster (without a Gemini Summon) is already on the field when Skill Drain is activated, it will remain as a Normal Monster because of its effect. You can also Gemini Summon the monster, but as soon as it becomes an Effect monster Skill Drain will negate its effects.

If Skill Drain was active first, when you Summon a Gemini monster, its effect will be negated, it will NOT be treated as a Normal monster, and you CANNOT Gemini Summon it. Once Skill Drain leaves the field after this, the Gemini monster will become a Normal monster by its effect, and you can Gemini Summon it.

The last part of the second paragraph there ("...you CANNOT Gemini Summon it.") I'm not sure about. It depends whether the Second Summon is an effect of a Gemini monster (and could be negated) or a feature of Gemini monsters (it's not an effect, just a kind of Normal Summon). That's why the answer to 2A was "I'm not sure".

But I believe everything I said is correct.

 

[1cup]

not that i'm doubting your breadth of knowledge maruno, but has an official ruling been made?

when asked to prove these assertions, i would like to be better prepared than: "it's on the internet"

 

[Entropy]

Last I checked, the OCG ruling is that Skill Drain still affects Normal Gemini monsters, and will make them become Effect monsters. Which doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[EmeraldDragon]

Yeah I mean maruno knows a lot but the effect of being treated as normal is still an effect and thus can be negated by skill drain

 

[Dillie-O]

Here's my take on this, which is piggy backing on HorusMaster a bit. Gemnini Monsters, by default, are effect monsters. This is why they have the fancy orange border around their card. It just so happens that their effect allows them to be treated as normal monsters while on the field and in the graveyard.

So when Skill Drain comes into play, it merely negates the effects of the monster, but does not "reclassify" them in any way to something else. Skill Drain removes the ability of a Gemini monster to "convert" itself (and to have it's secondary effect activated) and just sits there as an effect monster on the field not being able to do anything. This situation is best reflected while Skill Drain is on the field and Ceasefire is activated. The monsters on the field still count as effect monsters for the damage to be inflicted, it is not as if Skill Drain physically converted them into Normal Monsters, though at the moment they are functioning as one.

So effects like Justi-Break will not be able to be activated in this case, because the Gemini Monsters are now effect monsters on the field for activation requirements. However, a card like Silent Doom CAN be activated, since Skill Drain cannot affect the monster in the graveyard and Silent Doom doesn't need to be equipped to a normal monster. It will simply special summon a normal monster to the field. That will successfully pull a Gemini out, then Skill Drain will remove its ability to be a normal monster, but Silent Doom has already done its job.

I hope this helps!

 

[1cup]

haha, that's exactly the strat i was planning/hoping to use, entropy
spam geminis to the field, and skill drain them, then probably emergency provisions my skill drain to gain the lp back and use their effects.

 

[skey23]

This issue was addressed in the rulings for GLAS...

If “Skill Drain” is in play a Gemini Monster that has not been Summoned again is an Effect Monster with no effect. You can target it with “Super Double Summon” and it will be Summoned again, but its new effect is still negated. But, if “Skill Drain” is negated or removed from the field later in the turn, the selected Gemini Monster’s effects will be active and can be used.

Enjoy.

 

[1cup]

that was exactly what i was looking for, thanks señor key.

 

[Maruno]

If “Skill Drain” is in play a Gemini Monster that has not been Summoned again is an Effect Monster with no effect. You can target it with “Super Double Summon” and it will be Summoned again, but its new effect is still negated. But, if “Skill Drain” is negated or removed from the field later in the turn, the selected Gemini Monster’s effects will be active and can be used.

That's just what I said, isn't it?

But that's only for the case where Skill Drain is already active BEFORE the Gemini monster gets to the field.

For the case of the Gemini monster being on the field beforehand, it's treated as a Normal Monster by its effect. Is this instead of, or as well as? I don't know.

If it's instead of (most likely), then <this card> is a Normal Monster. <This card> has an effect (the one making it a Normal Monster, but that's irrelevant). Therefore <this card> is a Normal Monster with an effect. Skill Drain negates the effects of Effect Monsters. Not the same thing. Don't go into the colours of the cards here, because that's unproductive. It's bizarre to think of a Normal Monster with an effect, but Yu-Gi-Oh! often breaks the rules like that.

In short, a Gemini monster (if it hasn't been Second Summoned) is a Normal Monster, even if Skill Drain is activated AFTER the Gemini monster hit the field. If Skill Drain was ALREADY active when the Gemini monster appeared, then the Gemini monster is an Effect Monster. Compare with Skill Drain + Jinzo.

Also, from the FAQ quote, it's clear that the Second Summon is NOT an effect, but rather a "this is what a Gemini monster is" kind of thing. Hard to explain. But you can still Second Summon a Gemini monster while Skill Drain is out (even in the case in the quote, where the Gemini monster is an Effect Monster before being Second Summoned, because Skill Drain was already active when it hit the field), which means it's not an effect that can be negated. It's a Normal Summon, and you'd need Normal Summon-negating cards for that.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

I'm pretty sure that that post means the following (this break down ought to clear it up):

Gemini on the Field 1x summoned + Skill Drain (activated before or after, it doesn't matter) = Effect Monster with no effect. When Skill Drain is removed, Gemini turns back on and it is "treated as a Normal Monster" again.

Gemini on the Field 2x summoned + Skill Drain (Activated after 2x summon) = Effect monster with no effect. When Skill Drain is removed, 2nd summon effect kicks back in.

Gemini on the Field 1x summoned + Skill Drain on the Field (Active before 2x Summon) = CANNOT be 2nd summoned, except by outside effect like Super Double Summon, which would force it to be Normal Summoned, but you cannot decide to 2x summon it with Skill Drain already Active, because the Gemini's effect that allows you to do so is being negated by Skill Drain.


At least that is the way I understand it means, IMHO. I am certain, though, that if I have gotten any of this wrong, it will be cleared up soon enough.

 

[Entropy]

That's just what I said, isn't it?

But that's only for the case where Skill Drain is already active BEFORE the Gemini monster gets to the field.

For the case of the Gemini monster being on the field beforehand, it's treated as a Normal Monster by its effect. Is this instead of, or as well as? I don't know.

If it's instead of (most likely), then <this card> is a Normal Monster. <This card> has an effect (the one making it a Normal Monster, but that's irrelevant). Therefore <this card> is a Normal Monster with an effect. Skill Drain negates the effects of Effect Monsters. Not the same thing. Don't go into the colours of the cards here, because that's unproductive. It's bizarre to think of a Normal Monster with an effect, but Yu-Gi-Oh! often breaks the rules like that.

In short, a Gemini monster (if it hasn't been Second Summoned) is a Normal Monster, even if Skill Drain is activated AFTER the Gemini monster hit the field. If Skill Drain was ALREADY active when the Gemini monster appeared, then the Gemini monster is an Effect Monster. Compare with Skill Drain + Jinzo.

The OCG ruling is that Skill Drain trumps Gemini monsters - always - even if the monster was on the field first. Which I find odd, since normal logic would lead to your conclusion.

Also, from the FAQ quote, it's clear that the Second Summon is NOT an effect, but rather a "this is what a Gemini monster is" kind of thing. Hard to explain. But you can still Second Summon a Gemini monster while Skill Drain is out (even in the case in the quote, where the Gemini monster is an Effect Monster before being Second Summoned, because Skill Drain was already active when it hit the field), which means it's not an effect that can be negated. It's a Normal Summon, and you'd need Normal Summon-negating cards for that.

Likewise, the OCG says it's a game rule or condition. Kind of like how you can Normal Summon monsters, you can Gemini Summon monsters. It's like the opposite of "This card can't be Normal Summoned or Set.".

Also, the Gemini Summon is dependent on the monster being a Normal Monster. Part of the Gemini Summon is making the monster an Effect Monster, but the monster is already an Effect monster, so you can't Gemini Summon it. Like how you can't Gemini Summon a monster twice.

The ruling for Super Double Summon doesn't have any clarification, other than the Japanese ruling that you cannot select a monster that was already Gemini Summoned. I suppose that since the targetted monster is a Gemini monster that hasn't been Gemini Summoned yet, it fulfills all conditions, and makes it a valid target. Note that Super Double Summon doesn't specify "...a Gemini Monster being treated as a Normal Monster...".

haha, that's exactly the strat i was planning/hoping to use, entropy
spam geminis to the field, and skill drain them, then probably emergency provisions my skill drain to gain the lp back and use their effects.

Still no. When Skill Drain is removed, the Gemini Monsters will turn back into Normal Monsters. Well, as long as they weren't Gemini Summoned.

 

[Maruno]

The OCG ruling is that Skill Drain trumps Gemini monsters - always - even if the monster was on the field first. Which I find odd, since normal logic would lead to your conclusion.

So, the text of Skill Drain should rather read:

"Activate by paying 1000 Life Points. While this card remains face-up, the effects of all face-up monsters on the field are negated."

...Thus no longer referring to Effect Monsters, but just monsters instead. So logically it would apply to Gemini monsters as well.

Likewise, the OCG says it's a game rule or condition. Kind of like how you can Normal Summon monsters, you can Gemini Summon monsters. It's like the opposite of "This card can't be Normal Summoned or Set.".

Also, the Gemini Summon is dependent on the monster being a Normal Monster. Part of the Gemini Summon is making the monster an Effect Monster, but the monster is already an Effect monster, so you can't Gemini Summon it. Like how you can't Gemini Summon a monster twice.

The ruling for Super Double Summon doesn't have any clarification, other than the Japanese ruling that you cannot select a monster that was already Gemini Summoned. I suppose that since the targetted monster is a Gemini monster that hasn't been Gemini Summoned yet, it fulfills all conditions, and makes it a valid target. Note that Super Double Summon doesn't specify "...a Gemini Monster being treated as a Normal Monster...".

This makes much sense. I did figure Gemini monsters would be an addition to the game rules, and that Second Summoning monsters would be a game mechanic (which states it's a Normal Summon, but you can only do it to Gemini monsters, and those Gemini monsters must be face-up on the field, must not have already been Second Summoned, and must be treated as a Normal Monster by its effect).

There are, of course, some cards that exist to break the rules. Curse of Fiend, for example, or Level Up!.

Still no. When Skill Drain is removed, the Gemini Monsters will turn back into Normal Monsters. Well, as long as they weren't Gemini Summoned.

Yep. The monsters remember how they were Summoned. That can't be wiped by Skill Drain (see Toon Monsters vs. Skill Drain). If they've been Second Summoned, they'll remember that no matter what (even if they're flipped face-down - see Jowgen the Spiritualist for a similar case).

 

[HorusMaster]

This is wrong. The effect most certainly DOES make Gemini monsters Normal monsters. That's the whole point. They ARE treated as Normal monsters, and are NOT treated as Effect Monsters because of this effect.

So I guess through it all, I was right in that the "effect" of Gemini monsters is that they are treated as normal monsters when first summoned and as such, are considered effect monsters.

 

[Maruno]

So I guess through it all, I was right in that the "effect" of Gemini monsters is that they are treated as normal monsters when first summoned and as such, are considered effect monsters.

No, because that effect makes the Gemini monster a Normal Monster, as stated. As I said above, this would result in a Normal Monster having an effect. It's odd to think about, but it happens.

Gemini monsters are not "also" treated as Normal Monsters. They are treated as Normal Monsters instead of Effect Monsters, as per the idea behind Gemini monsters.

You're saying that this Effect Monster is being treated as a Normal Monster by its effect, therefore it's an Effect Monster (and nuts to its effect, what does it know?). Don't be afraid to think outside the box - a Normal Monster with an effect is NOT the same as an Effect Monster. It's just that the former case hasn't existed before.

 

[HorusMaster]

I disagree. The effect of the Gemini monster is that is it treated as a normal monster when first summoned. It states as much in the card text:

*This card is treated as a Normal Monster while face-up on the field or in the Graveyard.

If the Gemini monster was a normal monster, then the card would not have (*/effect) in it's card description. The card states that it is an effect monster.

Let me ask you this. If your opponent summons a Gemini monster for the first normal summon, can you activate Ceasefire to inflict the 500 points damage to your opponent's LP's?

 

[EmeraldDragon]

Heres a simple way to look at it......

ya know how cards that say "this cards name is treated as X"? Geminis work roughly the same ok maruno? An effect monster is an effect monster plain and simple so skill drain will make it as such regardless of when it is activated. It may be an effectless effect monster but an effect monster nonetheless.

 

[Maruno]

Gemini monsters are orange because card colours can't change during the game (except with felt-tip pens, but they're not allowed), and it's the only way around the strict definition of how Normal Monsters should be laid out (yellow border, flavour text only). Since they don't want to put more rules into the rulebook for people to follow (which would otherwise lead to "This card inflicts Piercing Battle Damage" and etc., texts that just haven't caught on), they have to write all the card information on the card itself. Normal Monsters have flavour text, and that can't be gotten around.

Besides, you use Gemini monsters so they can become Effect Monsters (plus they're Effect Monsters in the Deck, which is where things like that matter (along with A Legendary Ocean/Harpie Lady/etc.)). It makes more sense to make the card orange, and then tell the player to wear filtered glasses for the short period when they're supposed to be Normal Monsters. It's the best they could come up with.

I don't know if Gemini monsters are treated as Normal Monsters by their effect AS WELL AS Effect Monsters because of their nature. Therefore I don't know if Ceasefire will work with Gemini monsters regardless of what state they're in. Do you know? I'm saying "instead of" because it fits with the concept behind Gemini monsters (Normal Monsters that suddenly power up and gain powerful effects), and I'm not sure what you're saying. You seem to be denying they would be Normal Monsters at all (it has an effect, therefore it's an Effect Monster regardless of what that effect actually says).

And incidentally, along with the Toon, Union and Spirit categories, Gemini monsters do NOT have the [*/Effect] tag next to their Monster Type. It's just accepted that they ARE Effect Monsters.

I can't actually see where your argument lies. As far as I can tell, you're repeating me but coming to a different conclusion.

Heres a simple way to look at it......

ya know how cards that say "this cards name is treated as X"? Geminis work roughly the same ok maruno? An effect monster is an effect monster plain and simple so skill drain will make it as such regardless of when it is activated. It may be an effectless effect monster but an effect monster nonetheless.

Yes, I certainly thought of the Harpie Lady example of similar card text. But do we know if that's true for Gemini monsters, though? You know what translations are like. I'm rather just have absolute confirmation than go on say-so. After all, it is a whole new category of monster, and the concept behind Gemini monsters doesn't quite fit with "always an Effect Monster, plus sometimes a Normal Monster as well".