Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World vs Bottomless Trap Hole

[Digital Jedi]

Could be the lack of sleep or food is muddling my thinking. Could be as plain as the nose on my face. But thi strikes my as odd.

If "Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World" is discarded by your opponent's card effect, when his effect resolves, he is Special Summoned first, and then the second part of his effect resolves. So the opponent cannot activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" or "Torrential Tribute"; the timing is no longer correct. Also, you could not draw a card for the effect of "Card of Safe Return".

Interesting. This is a single effect with two parts. But since when can we not respond to a summon with Bottomless Trap Hole because an effect is part of the summon? How is this different from a monster being summoned with an Ignition Effect and then chaining Bottomless Trap Hole to that effect?

 

[anthonyj]

They are stacking effects inside a single chain link. When the link resolves the summon happens and then immediately in the same chain link the second effect fires off. Thus the second effect is the last fact of the game and the summon is protected from Bottomless Trap Hole and company. It must be noted that this is entirely different than say Sacred Phoenix as the summon creates a new chain link when it resolves and thus the chain can continue being built based on responding to the summon.

Like I said in the other post we have on this, time to get the monkey cannons out. Konami is messing with our heads in brand new ways.

 

[Digital Jedi]

That it would make it a chain link with two seprate chain points and a seperate resolution for the first chain point thereby making the first chain point impossible to chain to. Forget monkeys. Who wants to help me rev up the Gorilla Tank?

 

[anthonyj]

Well the rulings do state that:

"Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World" must be Special Summoned to resolve the second part of his effect. If you cannot Summon him because you activated "Scapegoat" that turn, or your Monster Card Zones are full, then the second part of his effect does not resolve.

There is a single chaining point for both effects if the first effect gets negated the second doesn't resolve. But it is curious what will happen with cards like My Body as a Shield since cards in the graveyard can't be destroyed and MBAAS won't negate the summon will the targeted monster be saved and Goldd still gets to destroy the other card (assuming it was a spell or trap) and come to the field?

Nice of them to leave so many holes in such complex new rulings.

 

[daivahataka]

If they happen in the same link would they not be simultaneous from the game's point of view => the summon was the last thing to occur, it just happened at the same instance as the other effect.

If "Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World" is discarded by your opponent's card effect, when his effect resolves, he is Special Summoned first, and then the second part of his effect resolves. So the opponent cannot activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" or "Torrential Tribute"; the timing is no longer correct. Also, you could not draw a card for the effect of "Card of Safe Return".

So no chaining to the summon according to this,

yet:
Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World ruling 2:

The second part of this card's effect targets 2 cards on the opponent's side of the field. If the opponent chains a card to remove 1 of the 2 targets, the other targeted card is still destroyed.

???
So we're allowed chain to the summon but not allowed chain anything which responds to the summon even though the summon is still the last thing to have occured???

*Hops in the Gorilla Tank with Digital_Jedi and loads Rocket Warrior in the cannon*

 

[masterwoo0]

You're not responding to Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World's summon, your "chaining to his effect" to destroy 2 cards, much like you would chain Divine Wrath to Mobius the Frost Monarch when he is summoned and uses his effect.

 

[daivahataka]

anything which responds to the summon

You can't chain to the summon, yet these cards can be used on a summon even if there is nothing to chain to, hence they "respond" to the summon. Possibly not the best wording but surely you get what I mean, I simply didn't want to have to list out every card which has an activation timing of "when a monster is summoned/special summoned/flip summoned".

You're not responding to Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World's summon, your "chaining to his effect" to destroy 2 cards, much like you would chain Divine Wrath to Mobius the Frost Monarch when he is summoned and uses his effect.

And if this is true then we can use Bottomless Trap Hole & Torrential Tribute against him, yet the rulings say otherwise.

 

[masterwoo0]

And if this is true then we can use Bottomless Trap Hole & Torrential Tribute against him, yet the rulings say otherwise.

That wouldnt be true because the last thing to happen is not his summon, but the effect to destroy 2 cards on the opponents side of the field.

How can you chain Bottomless Trap Hole to the destruction of 2 cards as the last event to take place?? That doesnt follow in line with the statement that in order to respond to an event, the responding card must immediately follow after the event.

That's why you can't follow up with a Trap Hole after your opponent declares an attack because you have severely missed the timing.

The difference between Mobius and Goldd is the fact that Mobius must be successfully Tribute Summoned in order to activate his effect.

Goldd can only resolve his effect (he activates his effect to Special Summon himself from the Graveyard and part his overall effect is conditional on how he was sent) if he is discarded by the opponent's card effect, whereas he can still be Special Summoned by several different means and NOT get his effect to destroy 2 monsters.

Once Goldd is discarded from hand and is able to use both effects, the controller has priority to resolve his second effect to destroy 2 cards because both of Goldd's effects are stacked and are at the resolution stage. The Card Destruction is the only event you can respond to because the timing is no longer there for responding to his summon.

 

[daivahataka]

That wouldnt be true because the last thing to happen is not his summon, but the effect to destroy 2 cards on the opponents side of the field.

How can you chain Bottomless Trap Hole to the destruction of 2 cards as the last event to take place?? That doesnt follow in line with the statement that in order to respond to an event, the responding card must immediately follow after the event.

That's why you can't follow up with a Trap Hole after your opponent declares an attack because you have severely missed the timing.

In which case how can you possibly chain anything to remove the targeted cards before the effect resolves, as per ruling No.2?
If the two resolve as one then why are they not viewed as simultaneous from the game's point of view?

 

[daivahataka]

Ok, I was thinking about it the whole wrong way, now I'm just confused by this bit:

If the Special Summon of "Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World" is negated with "Royal Oppression", the second part of his effect does not resolve.

Is this a non-card text ruling(A.K.A. a BKSS ruling)? As this would otherwise imply the effect is only activated after successful summoning, and so would allow a chain point between the two effects, which is what the other rule specifically denies.

 

[Dillie-O]

We were discussing this issue over in the Lair and this was the conclusion I was coming to with these things...

No, I don't think that there is a discrepancy [regarding the rulings], its just that there is a dependency between the two facts. The rulings help us establish to critical things....

1) The special summoning and hand thinning aspects occur as a single resolution. So if you Divine Wrath, you kill two birds with one stone. This also establishes the fact that these two events happen as a single resolution, so you can't respond to the summon with BTH/Torrential because you special summon and then immediately cause a card discard, to which point BTH loses its timing (amazing how we were discussing this earlier with Last Will 8^D)

2) The hand thinning (in relation to Sillva) factor is dependent upon the special summoning of Sillva. So if you prevent the special summoning (Say Ojama Trio your opponent to fill things up) then your opponent loses the opportunity to thin your hand.

I don't know if this will become an "official" term, but I like to refer to these guys as having "complex links" on a chain. It's more than just 1 effect resolving, its actually two. Card Destruction could be something similar. You discard the hand, and then draw 5 cards afterwards. Once CD starts to resolve, there's nothing you can inject inbetween the discard and the draw to prevent your opponent from drawing again, you need to make your move BEFORE everything resolves. I would wager that if a card came out later in the game that prevented you from discarding your hand, that CD would up updated to include a similar ruling that if you never discarded up front, you wouldn't draw cards again.

That's my 10 bits 8^D

 

[Entilzha]

The Royal Oppression ruling is not really a BKSS. Read threw everything that Royal Oppression can be used to stop. It can stop the effect of a flip summoned Cyber Jar before Cyber Jar can even resolve to see if ethier oppoante has anyhting to special summon. Any special summons outside of the damage step can be stoppped by Royal Oppresssion. Now the diffrence between Royal Oppression and other traps thar can be used in response to a special summon is that Royal Oppression is a contunious trap. If Royal Oppression is already face up on the feild when the Dark Realm monsters try to special summon themselves the players have a chance to use the effect before the special summoning happens.

Think of like the field is walled off and the only way for a special summoned monster to get to the field is threw a door controlled by Royal Oppression. If a player pays the cost for Royal Oppression then the door refuses the special summoning, ala negation, and no monster(s) reach the field. For Dark World monsters since the first part of the whole effect didn't happen the rest can't ethier. Traps like Bottomless Trap Hole and Torrential Tribute need the summoning to actually happen then they can be used to respond to the summoning. These cards have to responed directly to the summoning with nothing in-between them and the summoning. With the Dark World monsters when they are discarded by an opponates effect summon themselves and also once they have summoned themselves get their extra effect. Making the last thing they do their second effect the last thing that happens that you oppoante can responed to and effectivly missing the timing for special summoning responeses.

 

[Jason_C]

Ahem. Last Will used in tribute summon. Archfiends. That will be all.

-pssvr

 

[daivahataka]

The Royal Oppression ruling is not really a BKSS. Read threw everything that Royal Oppression can be used to stop. It can stop the effect of a flip summoned Cyber Jar before Cyber Jar can even resolve to see if ethier oppoante has anyhting to special summon. Any special summons outside of the damage step can be stoppped by Royal Oppresssion. Now the diffrence between Royal Oppression and other traps thar can be used in response to a special summon is that Royal Oppression is a contunious trap. If Royal Oppression is already face up on the feild when the Dark Realm monsters try to special summon themselves the players have a chance to use the effect before the special summoning happens.

Think of like the field is walled off and the only way for a special summoned monster to get to the field is threw a door controlled by Royal Oppression. If a player pays the cost for Royal Oppression then the door refuses the special summoning, ala negation, and no monster(s) reach the field. For Dark World monsters since the first part of the whole effect didn't happen the rest can't ethier. Traps like Bottomless Trap Hole and Torrential Tribute need the summoning to actually happen then they can be used to respond to the summoning. These cards have to responed directly to the summoning with nothing in-between them and the summoning. With the Dark World monsters when they are discarded by an opponates effect summon themselves and also once they have summoned themselves get their extra effect. Making the last thing they do their second effect the last thing that happens that you oppoante can responed to and effectivly missing the timing for special summoning responeses.

Hence it's a BKSS, as nowhere on the card is it implied that the summon must be successful for the second effect to still go through, it's just a bonus effect if your opponent's effect caused the discard.
Cyber Jar however requires that it be flipped in order for it's effect to occur, if its flip summon was negated, it was never flipped and so it can't get its effect, Royal Opression will only negate the effect of the card if it is summon dependant or requires the monster to be on the field at resolution.

 

[masterwoo0]

Hence it's a BKSS, as nowhere on the card is it implied that the summon must be successful for the second effect to still go through

It doesnt have to imply it. There's no way to really stop the Second Effect from happening if you don't negate the Summon, unless you get rid of your cards in hand by a couple Raigeki Breaks or destroy/remove cards on the field before Goldd can destroy them.

You can't really say that there is an implied action because, you cant have one without the other, so there's no need to imply or suggest that you "may" get the second effect.

You "can" get the second effect as long as he was successfully Special Summoned by his effect after being discarded by your opponents card effect.

 

[Entilzha]

But in the Cyber Jar exaple you are not negateing the flip summon but the special summoning of the monsters. Flip summoning is not a special summons so Royal Oppression can't stop the flip summoning. What Royal Oppresion does is stop the special summoning of monsters by Cyber Jars effect and negates its effect. You get nothing out of the flipped Cyber Jar and its destroyed cause royal oppresion not only negates effect but also negates the effect that would special summon the monster(s). Now was it poor wording on the Dark World monster for US release, oh yeah. Their could have been a better way to show the second effect linked so to speak to the first.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'm still stuck back here on the whole Reasonings that keep you from activating Bottomless Trap Hole on the Dark World Special Summons.

That wouldnt be true because the last thing to happen is not his summon, but the effect to destroy 2 cards on the opponents side of the field.

Yes, but the problem I'm having isn't the timing itself, it's the reason behind the timing. What other effect do you know of that has a resolution within a resolution? The rulings suggest that the effect of summoning is a chainable event in of itself. Yet because its a chainable event within the resolution of another chainalbe event you don't get to chain to it. Alright, who took the Gorilla Tank out last? Its windows are filthy!

 

[Jason_C]

Did anyone read my post? I'm sorry for spamming, but I feel as though I posted some important evidence, and am being ignored.
-pssvr

 

[anthonyj]

pssvr - Archfiends have what can best be described as partial resistance to effects. The effect of negating an effect isn't chainable (it doesn't add to the chain) it simply determines when said effect is interacting with them whether they can negate it because sometimes things don't work against them. Last Will is a can of worms that still has no clear rulings from UDE or Konami (and the rulings we have seen from both conflict).

DJ - They are purposely creating a buffer zone around the summon by placing both effects in a single chain link and claiming one happens before the other. It has no precedence from other rulings and it makes no sense when compaired to other effects that do more than one thing during resolution. It is simply yet another created out of the mind of Mr. Takahashi as how he wants it to operate and the game will just have to adjust to allow this new thing in. What pssvr said in another thread about every mechanic in the game and every step where something can occur having an example showing evidence that the steps have been created by the cards themselves is an excellent observation. In another 2 years this ruling will seem completely logical. Because that is just how it is.

 

[Entilzha]

You can respond to the summoning IF its the last thing that happens in the chain, remember you can't chain to a summoning. The confusion is when they get discared by on oppoantes effect that you get the combined effect. When forming a chain you can only responed to the last thing that happen. When a Dark World monsters is discarded by an oppoantes effect it summons itself to the field and then if the first part is happens it can do its second part. Since the secind effect is the last thing to happen that you can responed to for creating a chain.