Hello? Which step occurs first

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FiendMaster

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my opponent use Creature Swap. I gave him my Pyramid turtle and he gave me his Newdoria. He didn't attack and ended turn.

( on the field, my opponent: Spirit reaper in atk mod, pyramid turtle in atk mode, no S/T. me, just Newdoria)

on my turn, I summoned Breaker. If I atk my Pyramid turtle with Newdoria (they both die at the same time), does Newdoria destroy one of the monster on the field first and that could either be Breaker or Spirit Reaper, right? or do I special summon Vampire Lord to myside of the field first before Newdoria destroy any monster?


and can you atk with BLS-envoy first then remove himself?
 
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Since you control Pyramid Turtle's effect it is chain link 1. Newdoria is chain link 2. In this case, Newdoria is forced to destroy either Spirit Reaper or Breaker. Pyramid Turtle resolves afterwards, summoning a Zombie. Also, BLS-Envoy attacking bars the activation of his removal effect for the turn.

-chaosruler
 
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FiendMaster said:
really...cause my opponent says when i crash Newdoria into Pyramid Turtle.. he get to use Newdoria's effect and choose who to destroy. with that in mind, i didn't want him to destroy my breaker so i atk his Spirit Reaper with Newdoria and that was a bad move....
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Newdoria's effect is Mandatory, Pyramid Turtles effect is optional:
According to the Jerp, your opponent would have to place Newdoria as chain link 1. As mandatory triggers are placed before optional triggers, before looking at who owns the effect.

This question must go to the judge's list to get a proper answer.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Newdoria's effect is Mandatory, Pyramid Turtles effect is optional:
According to the Jerp, your opponent would have to place Newdoria as chain link 1. As mandatory triggers are placed before optional triggers, before looking at who owns the effect.

This question must go to the judge's list to get a proper answer.
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This is correct. Also you cannot attack with Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning and then remove something from the game.
 
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As far as Newdoria's effect goes, it occurs at the end of the Damage Step and if there is more than one effect that would resolve, then the turn player would be step one and the opponent would be step two in the chain.

Since Newdoria is sent to the opponents Graveyard, he controls the effect to destroy one monster, and should be placed as Step Two in the chain, which would mean that he could destroy Breaker.

The turn player resolves the effect of Pyramid Turtle and summons Vampire Lord.

I could be wrong....
 
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FiendMaster said:
my opponent use Creature Swap. I gave him my Pyramid Turtle and he gave me his Newdoria. He didn't attack and ended turn

( on the field, my opponent: Spirit Reaper in atk mod, Pyramid Turtle in atk mode, no S/T. me, just Newdoria)

on my turn, I summoned Breaker. If I atk my Pyramid Turtle with Newdoria (they both die at the same time), does Newdoria destroy one of the monster on the field first and that could either be Breaker or Spirit Reaper, right? or do I special summon Vampire Lord to myside of the field first before Newdoria destroy any monster? .
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Using Raigekick's Battle Phase chart (which is by no means official but, quite frankly, its the most accurate thing we have to go by) then both of these effects occur at the final substep of the Damage Step (the step where all destroyed cards actually go to the Graveyard.) The simulteaneous events then form a chain and I would think, as the turn player, you would decide which order to reslove these effects. (And since the are both Graveyard activated, only the owners would benefit from them so choose the order carefully.)


and can you atk with BLS-envoy first then remove himself?
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Well, first of all Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning's text reads: "Once during each of your turns, you can select and activate 1 of the following effects:" So you only get to use one effect or the other per turn, (his first effect very clearly states it cannot attac the turn it used) unless you use one effect and somehow manage to flip him face-down and then face-up again in that same turn. In that case his effect resets. It will also work if he's taken off the field somehow after using one effect and returned again that turn.

I've never seen it done before but I don't see any reason why he can't remove himself from play. Maybe your thinking of comboing him with Return from the Different Dimension? If your going for a finishing move then that combo could quite possible work.
 
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densetsu_x said:
It's actually a similar case to say suiciding equal strength "Sangan" and "Mystic Tomato" for example. Even though 1 is optional, and the other is manditory, the turn player has their monster's effect go in Chain Link 1 and the opponent's is Chain Link 2.
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We know that turn player effects go first.
We know that mandatory effects go first.

But the gameplay FAQ does not say which of those supercedes the other.

A ruling already up "might" support what's in the Jerp:

When you Tribute Summon "Dark Magician of Chaos" with "Sangan" or "Burning Algae", those cards effects are Step 1 of the chain, and "Dark Magician of Chaos"' effect is Step 2.

It doesn't say who owns sangan, or burning algae there. But it may just be assuming that its the same owner/controller and should not be conclusive proof.

This is what the Jerp says:

Turn players Mandatory effect get placed (first).
Opponent's Mandatory effects get placed (second).
Turn Player's Optional effect get placed (third)
Opponent's Optional effects get placed (last).

But we shouldn't rely on the JERP for rulings, so it should go to the Judge's board.
 
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Just for the record (cause if it's out there, I'm sure I missed it)... where did it say that "Manditory" effects go before optional effects?

Also with "Sangan"/"Burning Algae", I would say those effects activate first since they will hit the graveyard first before the summoning is completed (if they were used for a tribute).
 
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Turn Player's mandatory effects come first...
Then Non-Turn Player's mandatory effects...
Then Turn Player's optional effects.....
Then Non-Turn Player's optional effects.

Now I just have to dig up the documentation as to where that came from! So for now, it's just me yapping.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
This is what the Jerp says:

Turn players Mandatory effect get placed (first).
Opponent's Mandatory effects get placed (second).
Turn Player's Optional effect get placed (third)
Opponent's Optional effects get placed (last).

But we shouldn't rely on the JERP for rulings, so it should go to the Judge's board.
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Even in that, it still means that the opponent who owns Newdoria destroys a monster FIRST, because it went to his Graveyard and was therefore his mandatory effect, and the turn player who owns Pyramid Turtle gets to summon a Zombie from his Deck AFTER the non turn player has destroyed one monster.

Or is it implying that "first" means "last" to resolve?
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Even in that, it still means that the opponent who owns Newdoria destroys a monster FIRST, because it went to his Graveyard and was therefore his mandatory effect, and the turn player who owns Pyramid Turtle gets to summon a Zombie from his Deck AFTER the non turn player has destroyed one monster.

Or is it implying that "first" means "last" to resolve?
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"Gets placed" on the chain. So yes, "first" will be the "last" to resolve.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Just for the record (cause if it's out there, I'm sure I missed it)... where did it say that "Manditory" effects go before optional effects?
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If you search the Official Judge's forum you'll come up eventually (use keyword search "mandatory effect") with this exerp...


ANSWER:

Curtis asked me to clear up a few things about this, just so everyone is clear.
(Then I'll go back to beating my head against the wall over the "Blast with
Chain" rulings I'm working on.)

1. Curtis made a small error in his previous answer. The reason that the effect of "Kinetic Soldier" is required to be first on the chain is not because it is a Spell Speed 1 effect. The reason is that it is a mandatory Trigger Effect that is having its trigger condition satisfied. Therefore, it "fires off" before anybody can do anything about it. (If multiple mandatory Trigger Effects fire off simultaneously, then of course they would go on a chain.) As a result, nothing is going to get put in front of it on the chain (except another mandatory Trigger Effect, and then only if it is controlled by the turn playerAND he/she wishes it to be below "Kinetic Soldier" on that chain).
 
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If I'm reading and understanding correctly, then the "Pyramid Turtle" would resolve 1st, as it was 2nd on the SEGOC chain, then "Newdoria", so the newly summoned monster 'could' be chosen by "Newdoria"s effect.
 
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