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FallenAngel

Formally known as .:TDK:.
So I have Solar Flare Dragon on the field equipped with megamorph making its ORIGINAL attack to 3000. Then I play Spiritual Fire Art - Kurei, me and slither say they would lose 3000 but others say no 1500, they gave me a link that proved me otherwise

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=9386#9386

But if this judge tell sme different and slither (a judge) tells me my side is write, WHAT THE HELL DO I DO.

FA
 
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While I totally respect and believe most things slither says, if a post on the Judge's List comes up, from officials like Dan, those are the official rulings we have to follow.

edit:
I just realized that Ectoplasmer is listed as #3. That one I dont agree with. Ectoplasmer should deal the damage at the same time it tributes the monster, thereby referencing the ATK from the field (Megamorph and all)
 
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go with the list, unless the list is outdated and it could be we are human afterall. I belive the reason why is becuase Spiritual Fire Art uses the term Tribute, and when you tribute by the time you do the rest of the effect you are now looking at the creature in the grave. So im preaty sure thats the reasoning behind it, I could be wrong or i could be right but for surtain they are right until proven wrong
 
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I was attempting to reason through this on Realms with slither (deck wraith).

My thoughts were the simple sentence separation between the tribute and the damage inflicted. Its like pausing to catch your breath. You tribute.stop. You look for the original ATK, and inflict damage.stop.
 
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acording to the card 'Spiritual Fire Art - Kurenai' the damage dealt is equal to the tributed monster origainal attack power, which would mean that if solar flare is the tribute it's going to be 1500 damage dealt!!!
 
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while I agree with you, it still has to be understood that the confusion lay with the fact that Megamorph alters the "orginal" ATK, and the key becomes identifying exactly where the monster is when the card effect references its ATK.

That's why I dont agree with clumping Ectoplasmer with the first two examples. Its an oversight on Dan's part, imo.
 
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best thing you guys can do is send them an Email to see what comes out of it.

To me the second part of the effects checks were the creature is at and take its original attack power there.

just screaming out
Barty64 said:
acording to the card 'Spiritual Fire Art - Kurenai' the damage dealt is equal to the tributed monster origainal attack power, which would mean that if solar flare is the tribute it's going to be 1500 damage dealt!!!
Click to expand...

doesnt solve anything becuase nobody will know why exactly it deals the damage, at this point like squid pointed out,

squid said:
My thoughts were the simple sentence separation between the tribute and the damage inflicted. Its like pausing to catch your breath. You tribute.stop. You look for the original ATK, and inflict damage.stop.
Click to expand...

This is probably the reasoning why, because like he stated its like a pause, First tribute, then look around for a bit, then find the creature were it may be and then deal the damage.

but at this point since megamorph isnt on the creature cause oviously itll be somewere else with megamorph somewere else not attached to it, the card [spiritual fire art] will look for the original attack at this point were the creature may be.

so according to how we sepearte this it would actually make the answer on the judges list correct. why? becuase we got the same answer.
 
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Well, as far as Ectoplasmer goes, the monster is still in the graveyard (tribute/tributed) when it looks for it's original attack. At least, that's how I read it. i think I get where you're coming from though, in that it is an effect, not cost? Still I wonder if it would be the case if it said send. Or, better yet, what if it said inflict damage equal to the original ATK of the monster you SEND (present tense)? I bet that would change it for sure!!
 
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actually, what I was thinking was the tribute and the damage inflicted occur simultaneously, not one after the other. So in essense, yes, it is looking at the ATK as it sends it.

or at least that is how I was viewing it because of it being an effect, not cost.
 
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Well as I had to make the comment on realms about this being needed to be clarified, woo0 made a "logical explanation" of why this sorts of scenarios might work the way they do, with all the "internal" and "external" effects thing.

Though there are still loopholes to be addressed and one ruling im still in disagreement with is Power Bonds:

The ATK bonus for "Power Bond" is not a fixed number. It is a bonus equal to the original ATK. So if the original ATK changes, so does the bonus from "Power Bond". For example, if you equip the Fusion Monster with "Megamorph" to change the original ATK, the bonus ATK for "Power Bond" adjusts so that the bonus is equal to the new original ATK. For example, if you Summon "Cyber End Dragon" and then equip it with "Megamorph" while your Life Points are lower, its original ATK will become 8000, so it gains an additional 8000 ATK from "Power Bond" for 16000 ATK total
 
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You guys may be forgetting or unaware of the ruling changes we got roughly a year ago. "Original ATK" does not mean "Printed ATK" (and we were scolded for using such a term). Original ATK is a malleable number that can be altered by effects. For all intents and purposes the Original ATK of a monster is the one he is printed with. But then you have effects which specifically alter that. This alteration is completely different from a regular power boost. Instead of saying "this card has the ATK it's printed with + this additional modifier", your now having to say "this card is now being treated as if his printed ATK was something else."

Also, since redefining Original ATK is something that can only be done on the field, there would be no referencing it in the Graveyard. Tributing occurs on the field in all cases, anyway. The destination for a tribute never matters, unless the effect specifically says the card needs to be somewhere for the effect to fully resolve. In any other instance, the destination of a tribute is completely irrelevant and wouldn't otherwise be used as a reference..
 
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Digital Jedi said:
I see, he saying you DO refrence the Graveyard. For some reason I thought he said you didn't. That's in conflict with the rulings changes of a year ago.
Click to expand...

Precisely why im not fully comfortable with it. This really needs to be cleared up.
 
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How in the #### did Catapult Turtle get lumped in here? It doesn't use Original Attack it uses current attack. And I can't believe we're back to referencing ATK in the graveyard in any event. Wouldn't that mean that a Fusilier Dragon tributed with Ectoplasmer would inflict 1400 regardless of whether it was summoned without tribute?
 
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krazykidpsx said:
go with the list, unless the list is outdated and it could be we are human afterall. I belive the reason why is becuase Spiritual Fire Art uses the term Tribute, and when you tribute by the time you do the rest of the effect you are now looking at the creature in the grave. So im preaty sure thats the reasoning behind it, I could be wrong or i could be right but for surtain they are right until proven wrong
Click to expand...

Mystik Wok - Tribute 1 monster on your side of the field and select its ATK or DEF. Increase your Life Points by the same amount.
Rulings
Tributing a monster for "Mystik Wok" is a cost, so you can Tribute "The Legendary Fisherman" or "The Agent of Force - Mars".
The ATK or DEF is the current number, not the original number.
 
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Head hurting. Want to find Dan and give him a boot to the head.

So if I tribute my monster as a cost for Spiritual Fire Art - Kurenai and then I chain Call of the Haunted to revive the tributed monster would that mean that Kurenai will do no damage because the monster will no longer be in the graveyard to reference for a number when it resolves?

Aaaarrrrrgggghhhh!
 
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anthonyj said:
Mystik Wok - Tribute 1 monster on your side of the field and select its ATK or DEF. Increase your Life Points by the same amount.
Rulings
Tributing a monster for "Mystik Wok" is a cost, so you can Tribute "The Legendary Fisherman" or "The Agent of Force - Mars".
The ATK or DEF is the current number, not the original number.
Click to expand...
Hence my reference to present v. past tense verbs. Here, the "and select either its ATK or DEF" is part and parcel of the Tributing, therefore the same time, therefore the current ATK/DEF. Rather, the others read "of the Tributed Monster. Past tense, already in the GY. Makes sense to me.
 
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DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
Hence my reference to present v. past tense verbs. Here, the "and select either its ATK or DEF" is part and parcel of the Tributing, therefore the same time, therefore the current ATK/DEF. Rather, the others read "of the Tributed Monster. Past tense, already in the GY. Makes sense to me.
Click to expand...

Previous rulings disprove this theory. Maju Garzett - The ATK of this card becomes equal to the combined original ATK of the 2 monsters you Tributed for the Tribute Summon of this card.

When you Tribute Monster Tokens to Tribute Summon "Maju Garzett", the sum of their ATK's will be the ATK of "Maju Garzett".

Clearly a Tributed token would no longer be available for referencing Original Attack by your theory.
 
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