Tonylaudat
New Member
I was just wondering if you could use Horn of Heaven to negate the summon of a monster that was special summoned by the effect of another monster for example Shinning Angel. Any help on this would be appreacated. Thanks.
Horn of Heaven Vs monsters special summoned by other monster's effects
- Thread starter Tonylaudat
- Start date
Sure can. Horn of Heaven is a Counter Trap and can therby be activated in the Damage Step.
Waitasec.
Horn of heaven surely folows the rule that it must be activated to the summon, however, monsters summoned in this fashion are part of a resolving effect, which thereby means no cards can be activated at all.
Of course, this is just my personal judgment.
Horn of heaven surely folows the rule that it must be activated to the summon, however, monsters summoned in this fashion are part of a resolving effect, which thereby means no cards can be activated at all.
Of course, this is just my personal judgment.
Nope you can't. "Horn of Heaven" cannot be activated in this case because the effect to special summon the other monster is still resolving. When the effect resolves, the other monster is already considered to have been properly summoned to the field, thereby missing the window to negate it. "Divine Wrath" (to negate the monster effect initially) or "Solemn Judgment" (in the case it's a Spell or Trap card that's causing the effect) are the only 2 things you could use in that case. (Well, there are other Spell/Trap negators too, but for general purposes... it will due).
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Ummmm..... Horn of Heaven can't be used in this situation as it can only negate the summon of a monster by its own effect.....
Sorry guys. I'm stuck in "royal oppresion" mode today. Okay let me succesfully backpeddal here:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3132#3132
I'm going back a fair ways with this one. Last I knew, and this was a while ago, Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment could not stop the special summon of a monster from an outside card effect, such as Monster Reborn. That in order to stop that summon, you had to stop the Monster Reborn itself. Is this still correct, or is this completely outdated?
Jason
Level 2
Answer:
This is unchanged.
"Solemn Judgment" can be used to negate the effect of a Spell or Trap Card and then destroy the card. Since it doesn't matter what the Spell or Trap Card was going to do you won't have any problems explaining this one.
"Horn of Heaven" cannot negate Spell or Trap Cards. It is decidedly more limited in terms of what it can do against Special Summons. The Special Summon of a monster with the help of another card cannot be negated by "Horn of Heaven." So you cannot use "Horn of Heaven" against a monster Special Summoned by "Monster Reborn," "Polymerization," "Premature Burial," "Call of the Haunted," "Elegant Egotist," "Fusion Gate," a Ritual Spell Card, "Giant Rat," "Mystic Tomato," "Marauding Captain," "Spear Cretin," "Cyber Jar," etc.
You cannot use "Horn of Heaven" to negate the Special Summon of "Vampire Lord" or "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" when they are Special Summoned by their effects.
You CAN use "Horn of Heaven" when your Opponent Special Summons monsters like "Dark Necrofear," "Gate Guardian," "The Fiend Megacyber," "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End," "Archlord Zerato," etc. from their hand.
"Solemn Judgement" can be used to negate and destroy "Polymerization," "Monster Reborn," "Elegant Egotist," "Ritual Spell Cards," "Call of the Haunted," etc. "Solemn Judgment" has no issue with negating Spell and Trap Cards.
But if you wait and allow these cards to resolve and Special Summon the monster "Solemn Judgment" will no longer be able to negate the Summon.
So what does this mean? It means that if the monster is Special Summoned by a card's effect and you don't want that monster Special Summoned, you need to stop the card effect that will cause the monster to be Special Summoned in the first place.
Naturally you can use "Horn of Heaven" and "Solemn Judgment" to negate a Normal Summon or Flip-Summon of a monster. If the Flip-Summon negated was that of a monster with a flip-effect, the flip-effect will not activate. The same is true of negating the Normal Summon of a monster that has an effect that activates when the monster is successfully Normal Summoned. If you negate the Normal Summon the monster's effect will not activate because it was not
successfully Normal Summoned.
So if my opponent was to Normal Summon a "Marauding Captain," activating "Solemn Judgement" or "Horn of Heaven" in order to negate the Summon would prevent the Special Summon effect from activating. (This is because the Marauding Captain would not be successfully Summoned)
If my opponent Flip-Summons a "Cyber Jar," I can use "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgement" to negate the Flip-Summon. I cannot wait and use either of these cards against the monsters that would be Special Summoned from the efect of the "Cyber Jar." I need to stop the "Cyber Jar" itself.
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Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@hotmail.com
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3132#3132
I'm going back a fair ways with this one. Last I knew, and this was a while ago, Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment could not stop the special summon of a monster from an outside card effect, such as Monster Reborn. That in order to stop that summon, you had to stop the Monster Reborn itself. Is this still correct, or is this completely outdated?
Jason
Level 2
Answer:
This is unchanged.
"Solemn Judgment" can be used to negate the effect of a Spell or Trap Card and then destroy the card. Since it doesn't matter what the Spell or Trap Card was going to do you won't have any problems explaining this one.
"Horn of Heaven" cannot negate Spell or Trap Cards. It is decidedly more limited in terms of what it can do against Special Summons. The Special Summon of a monster with the help of another card cannot be negated by "Horn of Heaven." So you cannot use "Horn of Heaven" against a monster Special Summoned by "Monster Reborn," "Polymerization," "Premature Burial," "Call of the Haunted," "Elegant Egotist," "Fusion Gate," a Ritual Spell Card, "Giant Rat," "Mystic Tomato," "Marauding Captain," "Spear Cretin," "Cyber Jar," etc.
You cannot use "Horn of Heaven" to negate the Special Summon of "Vampire Lord" or "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" when they are Special Summoned by their effects.
You CAN use "Horn of Heaven" when your Opponent Special Summons monsters like "Dark Necrofear," "Gate Guardian," "The Fiend Megacyber," "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End," "Archlord Zerato," etc. from their hand.
"Solemn Judgement" can be used to negate and destroy "Polymerization," "Monster Reborn," "Elegant Egotist," "Ritual Spell Cards," "Call of the Haunted," etc. "Solemn Judgment" has no issue with negating Spell and Trap Cards.
But if you wait and allow these cards to resolve and Special Summon the monster "Solemn Judgment" will no longer be able to negate the Summon.
So what does this mean? It means that if the monster is Special Summoned by a card's effect and you don't want that monster Special Summoned, you need to stop the card effect that will cause the monster to be Special Summoned in the first place.
Naturally you can use "Horn of Heaven" and "Solemn Judgment" to negate a Normal Summon or Flip-Summon of a monster. If the Flip-Summon negated was that of a monster with a flip-effect, the flip-effect will not activate. The same is true of negating the Normal Summon of a monster that has an effect that activates when the monster is successfully Normal Summoned. If you negate the Normal Summon the monster's effect will not activate because it was not
successfully Normal Summoned.
So if my opponent was to Normal Summon a "Marauding Captain," activating "Solemn Judgement" or "Horn of Heaven" in order to negate the Summon would prevent the Special Summon effect from activating. (This is because the Marauding Captain would not be successfully Summoned)
If my opponent Flip-Summons a "Cyber Jar," I can use "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgement" to negate the Flip-Summon. I cannot wait and use either of these cards against the monsters that would be Special Summoned from the efect of the "Cyber Jar." I need to stop the "Cyber Jar" itself.
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Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@hotmail.com
Digital Jedi said:
Then the Netrep needs to be updated because of this:
[Re: Vampire Lord] If you Summon "Vampire Lord" and he is destroyed by your opponent's "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment", "Vampire Lord" will be Special Summoned in your next Standby Phase.
Your quote is talking about a NORMAL Tribute Summon of "Vampire Lord". You CAN use "Horn" or "Solemn" to negate that.Bill said:
Digital's quote is in reference to "Vampire" or "Phoenix" coming back during the Standby Phase via their built-in 're-borning' effect. You CAN'T use "Horn" or "Solemn" when that occurs.
Masterwoo0 and Digital Jedi are correct. A monster's summon or special summon cannot be negated if it comes from an outside side effect. It doesn't matter that, as densetsu proposed, an effect is resolving. Konami has ALWAYS told us that a monster's special summon can't be negated if it originates from an outside effect. It never said that it was because an effect was resolving.
Following that, Horn of Heaven CAN negate Vampire Lord's special summon, as it is originating through its own effect. Of course, follow the judge list post until they catch this.
Following that, Horn of Heaven CAN negate Vampire Lord's special summon, as it is originating through its own effect. Of course, follow the judge list post until they catch this.
antilegend
New Member
Sorry but the reborn effect of Vampire Lord is different from those who special summon itself, e.g. Dark Necrofear. The special summon of Dark Necrofear, etc., is NOT caused by an "effect" that activate and resolve, like Vampire Lord does. Dark Necrofear simply causes herself to be summoned. No Spell Speed, unchainable. In Vampire Lord's case, when you are reborning it, you are in the resolving a chain, and you can't do anything about it.Raijinili said:
StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
The above Judge's List ruling posted by DJ supports my exact point, which was what our arguement was about. It states very clearly that Horn cannot be used on V-Lord or Phoenix (revival). It should be the correct ruling and logic.Raijinili said:
I see no reason why it should also apply to Royal Oppression as well.
Tonylaudat
New Member
I'm just wondering, if Komei never meant for Horn of Heaven to be used against monsters summoned by other card's effect, then why did they say it could negate Special Summons in the first place (since monster that could Special summon themselves appears in the sets after Horn of Heaven).
Aslo, can you Traps such as Bottomless Trap Hole to get these monsters (assuming of couse that you are able to legally activate this trap (i.e. doesn't working during the damage step of battle phase)?
Aslo, can you Traps such as Bottomless Trap Hole to get these monsters (assuming of couse that you are able to legally activate this trap (i.e. doesn't working during the damage step of battle phase)?
Yes because BTH requires that the monster already be successfully summoned. So in that case once it is, drop them to the Different Dimension.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
Tonylaudat said:
Horn of heaven was released in Metal Raiders,
In MRD there are indeed mosnter that special summon themselves:
Gate Guardian, Larvae Moth and Great Moth. (HOrn of heaven in Japan being released in the latter of the sets making up our metal raider, therefore these cards also existed in japan at Horn of Heaven's release)
Quick answer:novastar said:
For this case at least, I believe the official site has more validity than the Judge list. Also supporting my view is the JERP's ruling about Fusion Gate and Fusion Gate VS Horn of Heaven. But we can take this back to the other topic.
Tonylaudat
New Member
I actually forgot about monsters such as Gate Guardian (granted they are almost never used). Here is what I don't get. You can use BTH on monster that were special summoned by other monsters effects, as well as their own becasue there is a chain point to which you can activate such traps (assuming once again that you are no in the damage step of the battle phase), but for some reason there is no chain point before the monster is special summoned by another monster's effect, but there is such a point when a monster special summons itself?
If you are speical summoning a monster like BLS, you are activating its effect, and paying the cost for the effect by removing one light and one dark monster in you graveyard from play, then BLS is special summoned to the field. In this case, there is a chain point before the summoning is considered to be succeful. How does this change if that smae BLS is reborn using a Spell Card. In both cases, we have a monster that is being special summoned by a card's effect (in the first case its own, and the second by an outside card), yet in the first case where are two chain points in which you can respond to the summoning (one before the summoning is completed, and one after which it is-after the turn player's prioety of course). In the second case however, the first chain point is no longer there. Why is this? In both cases, the Special summon was the last thing to occur (if I'm reborning a monster, the Spell card resolves attempting to bring the targeted monster back, but the Special summon is still the last thing to occur. If I chain Call to special summon Jowgen from my graveyard in responce to a card such as Monster Reborn, the Spell Card still resolves [as nothing is negating it] trying to bring the targeted monster back to the field, but Jowgen says no special summons, and thus the targeted monster's summoning is in effect negated.) Neither Chain point would exist in this case, since the targeted monster never made it to the field.
If you are speical summoning a monster like BLS, you are activating its effect, and paying the cost for the effect by removing one light and one dark monster in you graveyard from play, then BLS is special summoned to the field. In this case, there is a chain point before the summoning is considered to be succeful. How does this change if that smae BLS is reborn using a Spell Card. In both cases, we have a monster that is being special summoned by a card's effect (in the first case its own, and the second by an outside card), yet in the first case where are two chain points in which you can respond to the summoning (one before the summoning is completed, and one after which it is-after the turn player's prioety of course). In the second case however, the first chain point is no longer there. Why is this? In both cases, the Special summon was the last thing to occur (if I'm reborning a monster, the Spell card resolves attempting to bring the targeted monster back, but the Special summon is still the last thing to occur. If I chain Call to special summon Jowgen from my graveyard in responce to a card such as Monster Reborn, the Spell Card still resolves [as nothing is negating it] trying to bring the targeted monster back to the field, but Jowgen says no special summons, and thus the targeted monster's summoning is in effect negated.) Neither Chain point would exist in this case, since the targeted monster never made it to the field.