Horn of Heaven Vs monsters special summoned by other monster's effects

T

Tonylaudat

New Member
I was just wondering if you could use Horn of Heaven to negate the summon of a monster that was special summoned by the effect of another monster for example Shinning Angel. Any help on this would be appreacated. Thanks.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
BTH reponds to the summon, it has nothing to do with chain points, merely that the summoning was the last 'fact' to occur in play.
For Horn of Heaven the rule is simply that it can't be activated mid-resolution, standard chaining mechanics, and so any summoning which requires an effect to resolve and happens during that resolution cannot be chained to with Horn of Heaven as it misses the timing to negate the summon.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The point that I was trying to make, is that if you are using Horn of Heaven to negate BLS (after its effect has been activated to speical summon itself to the field), then aren't you also chaining horn to negate its summoning in mid resolution, unless there is a Chain Point before the summoning actually takes place in which you can activate Horn in?
Why can't Horn be directly chainned to Monster Reborn (or a simler Special Summoning effect)? There are cards out there that are chained to the effect of other cards, and yet are activated in responce to the activate of those cards, and not in responce to the effects of those cards. Take for example, Barrel behind the Back Door. This card takes the damage dealt to you by one card, and Shifts that damage to you opponet. If you wish to activate this card, you chain it to whatever card has inflected the damage to you, even though (unless it is a monster effect,), you still chain it directly to the card that dealt the damage before it deals the damage (in fact you are not allowed to activate Barrel if you can't be 100% certian that a card effect will cause damage no matter how likely the case).

My point here, is that there are cards that can be chained to other cards, that affect the outcome of the first card's effect without affecting the card itself, so following this logic, why can't Horn of Heaven be used in this manner?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Tonylaudat said:
The point that I was trying to make, is that if you are using Horn of Heaven to negate BLS (after its effect has been activated to speical summon itself to the field), then aren't you also chaining horn to negate its summoning in mid resolution, unless there is a Chain Point before the summoning actually takes place in which you can activate Horn in?
Click to expand...
There's no chain point. Special summons by a cards own effect has the same mechanic as a normal summon

-Announce a summon
-Pay any costs (Tribute, remove monster from play)
-Show the monster to the opponent
-Both Players have the chance to negate the summon
-The summon is considered Successful
-Any already active continuous effects are applied (except not to monsters that are "unaffected by those types of cards")
-The continuous effect of the monster is then applied if it exists
-Trigger effects form a chain, or else the Turn-Player has priority.

Why can't Horn be directly chainned to Monster Reborn (or a simler Special Summoning effect)?
Click to expand...

Horn of Heaven uses response timing. Much like Bottomless Trap Hole, or Negate Attack. Compare it to those cards, not to other counter traps. But it has its own semi-unique (binique? dinique?) window where it only can be activated.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Tonylaudat said:
The point that I was trying to make, is that if you are using Horn of Heaven to negate BLS (after its effect has been activated to speical summon itself to the field), then aren't you also chaining horn to negate its summoning in mid resolution, unless there is a Chain Point before the summoning actually takes place in which you can activate Horn in?
Click to expand...
A Special Summon by a cards "own" effect, is not the same as a Special Summon "from" a cards effect.

"Remove 1 light and 1 dark" is the cost to summon Black Luster Soldier - EotB. That is a Special Summon by a cards own effect.

"This card will return at the End Phase of the turn it was destroyed and sent from the field to the Graveyard (Twin-Headed Behemoth)." That is a Special Summons from a cards effect.

By a cards own effect, usually describes the initial way the card must be summoned to the field, without an external effect being required.

Chaos Sorcerer
Chaos Emperor Dragon - EotE
Gigantes
Aqua Spirit
etc....


From a cards effect can be a result of an external source, or "effect" like:

Giant Rat
Mystic Tomato
Twin-Headed Behemoth (when destroyed on the field)
Vampire Lord
Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys
Monster Reborn
Call of the Haunted
etc....
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said

"There's no chain point. Special summons by a cards own effect has the same mechanic as a normal summon

-Announce a summon
-Pay any costs (Tribute, remove monster from play)
-Show the monster to the opponent
-Both Players have the chance to negate the summon
-The summon is considered Successful
-Any already active continuous effects are applied (except not to monsters that are "unaffected by those types of cards")
-The continuous effect of the monster is then applied if it exists
-Trigger effects form a chain, or else the Turn-Player has priority."

Isn't this the same mechanic that occurs when you special summon a monster with another card's effect, expect that instead of announcing the summon, you are activating another card's effect, and choosing the monster that the effect will target. Wouldn't it go something like this?:

-Activate the Special Summoning effect declaring which monster it to be the target of the effect
-Pay any costs (Tribute, life point payment, discard, etc)
-Get the monster from whereever it is to be Special Summoned and show it to you opponet
-Both Players have the chance to negate the summon (since the effect only attemps to summon the monster to the field, since conditions on the field at the time the effect resolves could make this impossible).
Any already active continuous effects are applied (except not to monsters that are "unaffected by those types of cards")
-The continuous effect of the monster is then applied if it exists
-Trigger effects form a chain, or else the Turn-Player has priority."

How is the game mechanic for Special summoning monster via other card's effect different than those that are special summoned by their own effects?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Because as you said, you are activating another card's effect which means you are using a chain process. Since the resolution of said effect cannot be interrupted, you miss your window to negate the summoning. The monster would hit the field successfully during the resolution. At that point you can only activate cards that respond to a successful summon (unless you are still resolving the chain in which case you miss that window as well)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Tonylaudat said:
How is the game mechanic for Special summoning monster via other card's effect different than those that are special summoned by their own effects?
Click to expand...
Because, although an effect, in most cases, a special summoning allowence/requirement for the card's initial summon is no different to a normal summon in that it cannot be chained to as it doesn't have to be activated and resolve.
Summoning via the other effects is chainable and has to be activated and then resolve.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The point that I was trying to make with Jowgen + Call of the Haunted Vs Monster Reborn, is that there is a card in which the card Special Summoning the monster would resolve properly (since Jowgen can't negate the activate of Monster Reborn, or even make its activation invalid), but yet the monster would not be Special Summoned successful (since Jowgen prevents all special summons).

Also, why can't you chain Horn of Heaven to Monster Reborn to negate the Special Summon of a monster (which you know will occur), but you can chain Barrel Behind the Back Door to you opponet's Ring of Destruction (which you know will case damage that you can then Shift to you opponet)? In both cases, you are using the chain process that cannot be intreupped, yet you are allowed to chain Barrel, but not Horn of Heaven. If Barrel followed the same rules as Horn of Heaven, wouldn't it have to be activated after the resolution of the card that inflected that damaged that was to be Shifted, not before that card resolved? Why can't you chain Horn to stop an Special Summon from Monster Reborn (that you know will occur), but you can chain Barrel to your opponet's Ring of Destruction (which you know will cause damage)?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I feel likely entering a cauldron putting my 2 cents into this topic.

I look at HoH vs. Monster Reborn (and similar) this way:
(yes, I'm a computer programmer)

Monster Reborn activates
(nothing else happens)
Resolution:
Acquire 'resolution' lock
-> Monster Reborn special summons some guy
Release lock

HoH needs to go in at the 'Monster Reborn special summons some guy' point to stop it.

Unlike BTH, it is not so much a response as an attempt to 'fail' the summon. You must fail the summon before the summon is considered successful. For Monster Reborn, at the end of resolution, the special summon is successful. Too late to fail it now.

Barrel and Ring is a different story, it doesn't involve the summon mechanic for instance. Barrel says that you can activate it when some effect that inflicts life point damage is activated. Ring qualifies as an effect that does life point damage. Barrel's activation timing is now legal.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Tonylaudat said:
The point that I was trying to make with Jowgen + Call of the Haunted Vs Monster Reborn, is that there is a card in which the card Special Summoning the monster would resolve properly (since Jowgen can't negate the activate of Monster Reborn, or even make its activation invalid), but yet the monster would not be Special Summoned successful (since Jowgen prevents all special summons).

Also, why can't you chain Horn of Heaven to Monster Reborn to negate the Special Summon of a monster (which you know will occur), but you can chain Barrel Behind the Back Door to you opponet's Ring of Destruction (which you know will case damage that you can then Shift to you opponet)? In both cases, you are using the chain process that cannot be intreupped, yet you are allowed to chain Barrel, but not Horn of Heaven. If Barrel followed the same rules as Horn of Heaven, wouldn't it have to be activated after the resolution of the card that inflected that damaged that was to be Shifted, not before that card resolved? Why can't you chain Horn to stop an Special Summon from Monster Reborn (that you know will occur), but you can chain Barrel to your opponet's Ring of Destruction (which you know will cause damage)?
Click to expand...
Barrel Behind the Door doesn't follow the same rules as Horn of Heaven.

Barrel is only looking for the activation of an effect that inflicts Effect Damage.

Horn of Heaven is not looking for an effect activation. It's looking for a summon that is attempting to resolve. A Special Summon due to a card effect is not a summon attempting to resolve. It is an effect that just so happens to include a summon as part of its resolution. But Horn isn't looking for a summon inside of an effect. Inside of an effect, a summon isn't resolving. It's just a function of its resolution. Outside of an effect, a summon is a stand alone action that has a resolution process and isn't part or a function of some other effect.

The built-in summoning requirements of Effect Monster like Aqua Spirit aren't chainable effects. In reality, and this is something I personally believe, if Yu-Gi-Oh! cards were larger than they are, then the summoning requirments should be listed as a seperate paragraph. They are not a true effect, in my opinion.

Jowgen the Spiritualist is a markedly different effect here. He's continuously preventing Special Summons. The source of the summon is irrelevant. As long as he is on the field Monster Reborn cannot even be actiavted because conditions for a Special Summon are illegal.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Tonylaudat said:
The point that I was trying to make with Jowgen + Call of the Haunted Vs Monster Reborn, is that there is a card in which the card Special Summoning the monster would resolve properly (since Jowgen can't negate the activate of Monster Reborn, or even make its activation invalid), but yet the monster would not be Special Summoned successful (since Jowgen prevents all special summons).
Click to expand...

Jowgen the Spiritualist has a Continuous Effect, you aren't negating the summon, your just preventing Special Summon.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The point that I was trying to make with Jowgen + Call of the Haunted Vs Monster Reborn, is that it is possible to have Monster Reborn resolve properly, and yet not have the monster targeted by it Special Summoned to the field. This would seem to imply that whether the monster is Special Summoned to the field is indpendent of whether or not Monster Reborn resolves properly. This in turn would seem to imply that I could negate one without negating the other.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Yes, but Jinzo actually "negates" Trap Cards.

Jowgen does not "negate" these cards, it simply prevents a Special Summon event from occuring.

If theoretically MR included another effect that was independent of the Special Summon it would still resolve properly.

That is what i think Tony is eluding to.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top