Intuition

J

John Danker

Administrator
For those of you who have kids....have there been times when you saw something, your intuition told you to stop your kid, or to pack something, or to send money with them....or some "feeling" that just said, "This is wrong and I'd better check on it"...

Same thing happened this weekend I realized.

Threatening Roar saw some play at the Iowa Regionals just like it did a number of other places. I walked by a couple of matches it was being used it, on both occasions I was on my way somewhere (when it was used)...it was used in response to an attack. Something told me I should have stopped even though I was being summoned by someone else and I should have checked to make sure both players knew that it didn't stop the current attack. Later I saw it being used again in the same scenario and informed the players as both players stopped the current attack.....I'm willing to bet there are plenty of players who assume it stops the current attack when used in response to one <sigh> I've learned to listen to my intuition when it comes to my kids, it appears I need to listen to it when it comes to judging too.
 
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Threatening Roar is a tricky card. What most people don't do is declare their entrance and exit of the various phases, especially, the battle phase (which is where most of the intricacies lie).

At the very latest, Threatening Roar can be activated at the very end of Main Phase 1 or at the Start Step, or Battle Step Substeps 1 and 2 of the Battle Phase. I believe this is what most people intend to do. Because the turn player does not declare when they are entering the Battle Phase (often times, they perform a summon, resolve any responses and then declare an attack), this leads to a "slight" communication gap between both players.

Of course, IF every single step (and sub step) was declared by the turn player, and the opponent activated TR after the attack was declared (Battle Step Sub Step 3), THEN Threatening Roar would not stop this attack. But of course, we know players are not always going to be this precise during a tournament. The only way to "rectify" the situation is to ask whether phases were being exited and entered and when Threatening Roar was desired to be activated. After that, it would be a good idea to give both players (and perhaps through the PA system, every player) a little piece of advice on the importance of communication.
 
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<smiles /> Yeah, only because I've been in the debate about Threatening Roar have my ears been "peaked" about the card and I've called a few people on it in passing.

It also behooves us to remind the players (and ourselves) time again to read the text of the card. The answer often becomes clear 8^D
 
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You know what, I saw the same scenario a couple times as I walked around as well. I was holding back on stopping game play and wondering if I should have said something or not. I didn't and I'm sure it would have changed the out come of some games.

Now that I think about it, I'm kinda lucky an argument didn't break out between two players over whether or not Elemental Hero Wildheart could attack or not if Threathening Roar is activated before it attacks. Reason I was shocked about that is because I saw Wildheart receive quite a bit of gameplay at the regional.

When I was table judging, I reminded the two players I was watching to communicate their plays and actions clearly. Voice their game phases correctly and clearly. This made table judging for me a little bit easier.

There even was a dispute whether or not you search through a player's deck for additional copies of a flip effect from using cards like Nobleman of Crossout or Nobleman of Extermination. I told them the search is mandatory and it even says that on the card. Just not in plain obvious English.

The main reason why I didn't stop the people misplaying Threatening Roar is because I was assuming it was being activated in response to entering the Battle Phase or something along those lines.

I need to stop players more often when I notice this kind of stuff. @_@
 
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Well, I had one call on that this weekend, and both players were comfortable with the call that the attack would go through for the first monster if activated in response, but after that, no other monster could attack.
 
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It is our duty as judges to point out any gameplay that breaks the rules, even if we aren't called to the table. I learned that after my first SJC after asking the head judge about a player using Helpoemer wrong and nobody was calling a judge over. It helps the overall environment of gameplay be run smoother and its comforting to know that you won't lose a duel due to a misnomer that your opponent may be trying to sneak past you.
 
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It happens often that people play Threatening Roar in response to an attack but I don't really bother then (when I play YVD I do it too because they don't announce Phases, but it's really simple to do that just on click more or less doesn't hurt them). But when I'll see this I'm going to tell it to the player, because we all want that people are going to understand the game better.
 
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djp952 said:
I had that happen to me this weekend as well, wherein my first opponent (heretofore: "twitchy") tried to stop my attack with it, but I was down to 700LP and he still had a Stealth Bird I couldn't get rid of anyway, so I just let it go and mentioned that he might want to confer with a judge on his use of that card afterwards. :D

This is the same guy that cried foul for me using Contract with the Abyss on Demise, King of Armageddon :D
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I think I remember hearing that come up. Matter of fact, I was passing by when I heard some of the other Floor Judges talking about it and I said it has the same requirement as End of the World, so there's no issue.
 
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Yeah, announcing phases is a real problem, especially with the Jank Deck I ran last meta. Do you realize how many people announced there attacks before I could even activate Thunder of Ruler? Last regionals I attended, one of my opponents summoned Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys and declared game, while I was still calculating the damage I took from the previous turn. I said, there's no way I was going to let Phoenix stay around with a Bottomless Trap Hole set on my side of the field. He tried to argue, but, well, arguing about stuff that I already know is right is not a good idea face to face with me. It's not that I get angry or mean looking or anything like that. It's just that I've been told I give you a look like I'm not going to budge until you make a big fuss out of it. He knew he was wrong so we moved on.

Only thing that bugs me is, I must have been REALLY tired, because he eventually did finish me off later that duel, but with a Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys Special Summoned by Call of the Haunted. Does anyone see a problem with that? I wish I had, cause even if I was going to loose anyway, I don't like to be cheated.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Ummm, how did he get sacred phoenix back from the removed from game???
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That's what I asked myself, about two days later. I'll never forget the guy I played though, so if I see him again, Ill be a little more cautious if I play him. He sort of looked like a young Lex Luthor II who didn't exercise or eat right.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Yeah, announcing phases is a real problem, especially with the Jank Deck I ran last meta. Do you realize how many people announced there attacks before I could even activate Thunder of Ruler?
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I see this as being a budding issue in this format. I can see people abusing this card in this way. TP enters battle phase, non TP is sitting on a Threatening Roar, TP announces attack, non TP says, hey, wait a minute, you didn't announce you are entering the battle step and I wanted to activate a trap card. I can see players just waiting to see if their opponent attacks while sitting on this card knowing they won't announce their desire to enter the next step.
 
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The problem with a lot of players are that they're so use to a fast paced environment that they don't announce at the very least their game phase entries and keep a clear cut line of communication with their opponent. When I table judged in the Top 8, I had to remind the players that if I couldn't hear or understand what they're saying, I can't give them the most accurate ruling that I could give.

Also, some of the players tried to get me to give them a tactical advantage over their opponent. Someone asked me if he could get back 1 Normal monster from activating Dark Factory of Mass Production. I asked him I couldn't give him the ruling unless he played it, but I asked him a question. "Is the card allowing you to pick 0, 1, or 2 cards?" He answered "no" to it and then I told him, "You've got your answer." Smiled and continued to struggle getting between the chairs to go answer another question I was being summoned to.

A question that a team mate of mine asked me just out of curiousity when I walked past him went a little like this.

Jody: "AJ, since you're an L2 judge I'd like to ask you a retorical question. If I witness an incorrect play in a match next to me, can I call over a judge to correct the situation for them?"

AJ: "It's the responsiblity of the players of that match to call over a judge when they have doubt in the legality of each situation that comes up. A player or players from another match shouldn't call over a judge to correct a situation in another game. Also, a judge that witnesses an incorrect play of a card should stop gameplay of that match and correct the situation. Then continue gameplay."

Jody: "Alright, I was just wondering because I saw a couple matches with a couple players miss playing a couple cards incorrectly. It was Threatening Roar being activated in direct response to the declaration of a monster attack."

AJ: "Well, it's those players of that match to call a judge over when doubt exists for that situation."

I'm not sure if I answered his question correctly, but it was my gut feeling. However, I do believe that a player did call over a judge for another match because the players of that match were agruing.

I try my best at floor judging and I was using my intuition to help give an answer to the question my team mate asked me.

:eek:rc4:
 
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the stages of a duel can be orquad with people trying to jump
striaght to the battle phase.
but my friend has a yugioh dvd that shows you how to play
fairly.
one of the things it says is that a phase is not over until both
players agree that its over.
it also says that when doing a move you should ask if your apponent if he/she has counter he/she would like to use in that phase.
 
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There's been a similar issue around here that I haven't encountered but people try and pull off. They wait a smidge longer than after the player player draws and then plays Drop Off. A lot of duelists nowadays like to continuously shuffle their hand and all of those tactics, so then the situation becomes they shuffled their hand before I had a chance to play my Drop Off and now I don't know which card they truly drew.

With the ever debated priority issue and the emergence of some of these cards, I think it may actually help slow down the game, or at least structure it a bit more. Nowadays I see enough people saying "I'm going to end my turn now" as a prompt for those last minute Dust Tornadoes. Hopefully a step in the right direction.

EDIT: The issue with Call and Phoenix....the previous turn Phoenix was destroyed and removed from play by Bottomless Trap Hole. Its no longer in the graveyard to be "called" out.
 
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Dillie-O said:
There's been a similar issue around here that I haven't encountered but people try and pull off. They wait a smidge longer than after the player player draws and then plays Drop Off. A lot of duelists nowadays like to continuously shuffle their hand and all of those tactics, so then the situation becomes they shuffled their hand before I had a chance to play my Drop Off and now I don't know which card they truly drew.

With the ever debated priority issue and the emergence of some of these cards, I think it may actually help slow down the game, or at least structure it a bit more. Nowadays I see enough people saying "I'm going to end my turn now" as a prompt for those last minute Dust Tornadoes. Hopefully a step in the right direction.

EDIT: The issue with Call and Phoenix....the previous turn Phoenix was destroyed and removed from play by Bottomless Trap Hole. Its no longer in the graveyard to be "called" out.
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I'm one of those players that shuffle their hand, however, only until after I've drawn a new card(s) or am thinking do I shuffle my hand. I never shuffle my hand in the Draw Phase.

If I had been called over to a situation where a player had shuffled his hand right after he drew and his opponent wanted to respond by activating Drop Off, then this would be a "he said, she said" scenario. I would rule that the activation timing of Drop Off is incorrect and give the player that shuffled his hand a verbal warning about rushing game play. Rushing isn't very sportsman-like and it's pretty rude IMO. I don't tolerate over excessive rushing through game phases and steps. It simply is sloppy game play.

However, players that I've seen use Drop Off immediately activate it before their opponent combines it with their hand. Just to make sure they're discarding the card they drew and to ensure that it's the correct card they're discarding.

On the other hand, there are players that play excessively slow. Each player, according to the policy documents, have at most three minutes to make their play. Honestly, it should take them more than a minute to make a play. Even if it's a large hand and the situation is complex. I made sure the players I was table judging didn't take longer than one minute to make their plays.

I also reminded them to announce the major game phases that are used. Such as the Standby Phase, Main Phase 1, Battle Phase, and the End Phase. By making the players announce them, it decreased the number of possible ruling calls I would have had to make.
 
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