level 5> toons any to avoid tribs?
- Thread starter kifoghorn
- Start date
countvelaquara
New Member
that's nasty, it's a special case for toons because most special summons avoid tributes anyway! :S
kifoghorn
Member
Was thinking if I discard one to the graveyard can I special summon it from there, with something?
After looking through RONIN, there is cost down
"You can use multiple "Cost Downs" in the same turn and their effects accumulate, so 3 "Cost Downs" lowers the level by 6 Stars."
After looking through RONIN, there is cost down
"You can use multiple "Cost Downs" in the same turn and their effects accumulate, so 3 "Cost Downs" lowers the level by 6 Stars."
DarkLogicianOfCaos
Eschew Obfuscation
Level Conversion Lab.
Use your Tokens....They are legal Tribute fodder for Special Summons.
How about Tributing your opponent's Monster with Soul Exchange?
"Can it be Special Summoned from the Graveyard if discarded from my hand?" That is an interesting question....let's see (thinking out loud, here). You can Special Summon Toon Summoned Skull from the Graveyard with Archfiend's Roar provided it was Special Summoned correctly to begin with. Ah, yes...you see, just like any other Monster that says, "This Card can only be Special Summoned by...", this speaks of its original Summon. So, supposing you Special Summoned it by its effect, having Toon World on the field, of course you can "reborn" it, evidentaly without Toon World on the Field (at least that's what I get from the Archfiend's Roar ruling). However, if you discard it from your hand to the Graveyard, like any Ritual Monster, you cannot "reborn" it, because its Summoning condition wasn't met. Unless I suppose, you have Toon World on the field at the time. Toons are such odd ducks!!
Now, the Question remains, what if you have Toon World on the Field and you Special Summon Blue Eyes Toon from your hand by the effect of "A Rival Appears". Can you do it? Sure. Does it constitute a proper Summon according to the text, for the purposes of "reborn"ing? I don't see why not.
At least I am confident that if I am way off base on this, because I tend to overthink everything, someone will be along quickly to correct me.
Use your Tokens....They are legal Tribute fodder for Special Summons.
How about Tributing your opponent's Monster with Soul Exchange?
"Can it be Special Summoned from the Graveyard if discarded from my hand?" That is an interesting question....let's see (thinking out loud, here). You can Special Summon Toon Summoned Skull from the Graveyard with Archfiend's Roar provided it was Special Summoned correctly to begin with. Ah, yes...you see, just like any other Monster that says, "This Card can only be Special Summoned by...", this speaks of its original Summon. So, supposing you Special Summoned it by its effect, having Toon World on the field, of course you can "reborn" it, evidentaly without Toon World on the Field (at least that's what I get from the Archfiend's Roar ruling). However, if you discard it from your hand to the Graveyard, like any Ritual Monster, you cannot "reborn" it, because its Summoning condition wasn't met. Unless I suppose, you have Toon World on the field at the time. Toons are such odd ducks!!
Now, the Question remains, what if you have Toon World on the Field and you Special Summon Blue Eyes Toon from your hand by the effect of "A Rival Appears". Can you do it? Sure. Does it constitute a proper Summon according to the text, for the purposes of "reborn"ing? I don't see why not.
At least I am confident that if I am way off base on this, because I tend to overthink everything, someone will be along quickly to correct me.
Short answer: No. They're like Chaos Emperor Dragon.
Long answer: I never really understood Toon monsters. We have the ruling:
"¢ You cannot Special Summon a "Special Summon-only" monster. You CAN Special Summon "Toon Mermaid" with "Last Will's" effect, as long as you have "Toon World" on your side of the field.
...which I always thought meant that it's actually 3 Summon effects in one:
*It cannot be Normal Summoned (like Rare Metal Dragon).
*It can only be Summoned with Toon World on the field (like Guardians).
*It can be Special Summoned from the hand (like Cyber Dragon).
But then I saw the Archfiend's Oath ruling, and it got me confused. So, I looked up the Japanese ruling, and my interpretation is wrong. Toon monsters are Special Summon only monster, like Chaos Emperor Dragon. So, they cannot be summoned by outside effects (like A Rival Appears!), nor from the graveyard if they aren't properly summoned.
We need to ask about that Toon Mermaid ruling.
Long answer: I never really understood Toon monsters. We have the ruling:
"¢ You cannot Special Summon a "Special Summon-only" monster. You CAN Special Summon "Toon Mermaid" with "Last Will's" effect, as long as you have "Toon World" on your side of the field.
...which I always thought meant that it's actually 3 Summon effects in one:
*It cannot be Normal Summoned (like Rare Metal Dragon).
*It can only be Summoned with Toon World on the field (like Guardians).
*It can be Special Summoned from the hand (like Cyber Dragon).
But then I saw the Archfiend's Oath ruling, and it got me confused. So, I looked up the Japanese ruling, and my interpretation is wrong. Toon monsters are Special Summon only monster, like Chaos Emperor Dragon. So, they cannot be summoned by outside effects (like A Rival Appears!), nor from the graveyard if they aren't properly summoned.
We need to ask about that Toon Mermaid ruling.
Read the text. There is no Special Summon restriction placed upon Toon Monsters whatsoever. You can Special Summon Toon Monsters however and whenever you want (even if you haven't Summoned it before). These Toon Monsters ALSO have an extra way to Special Summon them built into themselves (i.e. from the hand with Tributes) - this is not a restriction, it is an option.
The only restriction is that you must have Toon World active on your field when you Special Summon the Toon Monster.
Premature Burial works. Call of the Haunted works. Damage Condenser works. Return from the Different Dimension works. Big Wave Small Wave works (for Toon Mermaid only, of course). Spear Cretin works. And so forth.
ALSO, read the text. The "Tributes are required for monsters Level 5 or more" thing applies ONLY to when you're Special Summoning the monster from your hand BY ITS OWN EFFECT. Special Summoning it via A Rival Appears!, for example, does NOT need Tributes (because of the "no restrictions on Special Summon" thing).
Addendum: This explains the Toon Mermaid ruling quoted above. The Archfiend's Roar ruling is wrong, in that it doesn't apply to Toon Summoned Skull.
DarkLogicianOfCaos
Eschew Obfuscation
Last Will: Special Summoning from the deck requires the fulfillment of the Special Summoning Requirement of having Toon World on the Field.
Archfiend's Roar: [RONIN] "You can select a "Special Summon-only" Archfiend like "Fiend Skull Dragon" or "Toon Summoned Skull" with "Archfiend's Roar", but only if they were Summoned properly earlier in the Duel. Applies to Toon Summoned Skull, and notice, it makes no mention of "and Toon World is on the Field", only that it was (past tense) Special Summoned correctly, just like Fiend Skull Dragon (Fusion Monster). This example alone makes me think that Toon Monsters (old school) are like Rituals and Fusions, with their only clause as opposed to the except clause of some of the others. If this is the case, then only the initial Summon needs to be correct from the Deck or Hand (that is, with Toon World out). Once that is done, "reborn"ing them is a go, with or without Toon World on the Field. Unless, as Entropy (great name!) says, they are like the Guardians, which, truth be told, I always have played them, but, in which case the Archfiend's Oath is wrong, only because it left out the necessity of Toon World and treated the Toons as Fusions in this instance.
Make sense? I mean, the only confusing part to me is that the stupid Toon World stays on the daggone field. Unfortunately, I can't find any help on the Judge List.
<edit> beat by Simon! Thanks for the support! Hey! Where you been?? I've been looking for you here and at UDE! good to see you. Now I have to go. 'bye.
Archfiend's Roar: [RONIN] "You can select a "Special Summon-only" Archfiend like "Fiend Skull Dragon" or "Toon Summoned Skull" with "Archfiend's Roar", but only if they were Summoned properly earlier in the Duel. Applies to Toon Summoned Skull, and notice, it makes no mention of "and Toon World is on the Field", only that it was (past tense) Special Summoned correctly, just like Fiend Skull Dragon (Fusion Monster). This example alone makes me think that Toon Monsters (old school) are like Rituals and Fusions, with their only clause as opposed to the except clause of some of the others. If this is the case, then only the initial Summon needs to be correct from the Deck or Hand (that is, with Toon World out). Once that is done, "reborn"ing them is a go, with or without Toon World on the Field. Unless, as Entropy (great name!) says, they are like the Guardians, which, truth be told, I always have played them, but, in which case the Archfiend's Oath is wrong, only because it left out the necessity of Toon World and treated the Toons as Fusions in this instance.
Make sense? I mean, the only confusing part to me is that the stupid Toon World stays on the daggone field. Unfortunately, I can't find any help on the Judge List.
<edit> beat by Simon! Thanks for the support! Hey! Where you been?? I've been looking for you here and at UDE! good to see you. Now I have to go. 'bye.
I'll doubt that, skey23, because the text is different.
Yes, Toon Monster cannot be Normal Summoned or Set, but that doesn't mean they must be initially Special Summoned by the option their card text gives before being able to be Special Summoned any other way. Monsters that MUST be initially Special Summoned a certain way are called Special Summon-only monsters, and Toon Monsters are the exception.
The Toon Mermaid/Last Will ruling explicitly implies that Toon Mermaid is NOT a Special Summon-only monster (as we define it - the "must be initially Special Summoned by x" definition), because it clearly makes the point that Last Will CAN Special Summon it.
The text "You can Special Summon this monster from your hand..." on Toon Monsters closely matches the text of Cyber Dragon and The Fiend Megacyber. However, they can be initially Special Summoned any other way possible instead of the method written on their card.
Because of this, I'm afraid I must insist that the Archfiend's Roar ruling is nonsense.
It's an either/or case, really. One or the other ruling must be wrong, at least in part. Either Toon Monsters MUST be initially Special Summoned by their effect (so Archfiend's Roar is correct and Last Will is incorrect), OR Toon Monsters can be Special Summoned any which way you want whenever you want (the opposite case). The wording of the cards reinforces one of these cases, and it's the one I just made.
And DarkLogicianOfChaos, sorry, but I think you're just confusing the issue no end.
Yes, Toon Monster cannot be Normal Summoned or Set, but that doesn't mean they must be initially Special Summoned by the option their card text gives before being able to be Special Summoned any other way. Monsters that MUST be initially Special Summoned a certain way are called Special Summon-only monsters, and Toon Monsters are the exception.
The Toon Mermaid/Last Will ruling explicitly implies that Toon Mermaid is NOT a Special Summon-only monster (as we define it - the "must be initially Special Summoned by x" definition), because it clearly makes the point that Last Will CAN Special Summon it.
The text "You can Special Summon this monster from your hand..." on Toon Monsters closely matches the text of Cyber Dragon and The Fiend Megacyber. However, they can be initially Special Summoned any other way possible instead of the method written on their card.
Because of this, I'm afraid I must insist that the Archfiend's Roar ruling is nonsense.
It's an either/or case, really. One or the other ruling must be wrong, at least in part. Either Toon Monsters MUST be initially Special Summoned by their effect (so Archfiend's Roar is correct and Last Will is incorrect), OR Toon Monsters can be Special Summoned any which way you want whenever you want (the opposite case). The wording of the cards reinforces one of these cases, and it's the one I just made.
And DarkLogicianOfChaos, sorry, but I think you're just confusing the issue no end.
DarkLogicianOfCaos
Eschew Obfuscation
Okay, how about the third option...that you can Special Summon Toons (old school type) by any means from your Hand or Deck, as long as Toon World is on the Field <second sentence>, including their own effect <third Sentence>. THEN, they have been Special Summoned properly and, so can be "reborn" even without Toon World <Archfiend Roar's ruling>.
No, because Toon Monsters have the text written on them: "This card can only be Special Summoned while "Toon World" is on your side of the field."
If you try to Special Summon a Toon Monster while Toon World is NOT active on your field, well, you can't.
For any Special Summon you'll ever do involving a Toon Monster, the Spell Card Toon World MUST be active on your field for it to happen. The card text makes this much clear.
If you try to Special Summon a Toon Monster while Toon World is NOT active on your field, well, you can't.
For any Special Summon you'll ever do involving a Toon Monster, the Spell Card Toon World MUST be active on your field for it to happen. The card text makes this much clear.
Sorry for the double post, but I'm making a new and unrelated point.
I've had a thought about this (while writing to the Judges' List - if that'll ever get an answer), and I've thought up one possible explanation.
Both rulings would be correct iff ("if and only if") Summons from the hand and Deck are different to Summons from the Graveyard and RFP.
But there's no reason for that to be the case. Just because we have cards that Ritual Summon in the hand and Deck and not in the Graveyard DOESN'T mean it's not possible to Ritual Summon from the Graveyard. We just don't have cards that allow it. Heck, we only very recently got one (1) card that Ritual Summons from the Deck. Also, you can Fusion Summon from the Deck, hand AND Graveyard, so there's obviously no distinction there. It's simply a case of what our current complement of cards do.
So this means there's nothing fundamentally different about the hand/Deck to the Graveyard/RFP that implies you can freely Special Summon Toon Monsters from the hand/Deck, but you must have initially Special Summoned the Toon Monster before attempting to Special Summon it from the Graveyard/RFP.
Also backing this up is the fact that there is nothing in the Toons' text to suggest that their initial Special Summon must be from the hand or Deck only.
Going literally by the card text, as I've mentioned in a previous post above (#10), there is no reason to suspect you cannot use Call of the Haunted to revive a discarded Toon Summoned Skull (assuming you have Toon World active). Yet, somehow, Archfiend's Roar suggests this is impossible (because there's no meaningful difference between Call of the Haunted and Archfiend's Roar, and Archfiend's Roar doesn't allow it). And that makes no sense.
I've had a thought about this (while writing to the Judges' List - if that'll ever get an answer), and I've thought up one possible explanation.
Both rulings would be correct iff ("if and only if") Summons from the hand and Deck are different to Summons from the Graveyard and RFP.
But there's no reason for that to be the case. Just because we have cards that Ritual Summon in the hand and Deck and not in the Graveyard DOESN'T mean it's not possible to Ritual Summon from the Graveyard. We just don't have cards that allow it. Heck, we only very recently got one (1) card that Ritual Summons from the Deck. Also, you can Fusion Summon from the Deck, hand AND Graveyard, so there's obviously no distinction there. It's simply a case of what our current complement of cards do.
So this means there's nothing fundamentally different about the hand/Deck to the Graveyard/RFP that implies you can freely Special Summon Toon Monsters from the hand/Deck, but you must have initially Special Summoned the Toon Monster before attempting to Special Summon it from the Graveyard/RFP.
Also backing this up is the fact that there is nothing in the Toons' text to suggest that their initial Special Summon must be from the hand or Deck only.
Going literally by the card text, as I've mentioned in a previous post above (#10), there is no reason to suspect you cannot use Call of the Haunted to revive a discarded Toon Summoned Skull (assuming you have Toon World active). Yet, somehow, Archfiend's Roar suggests this is impossible (because there's no meaningful difference between Call of the Haunted and Archfiend's Roar, and Archfiend's Roar doesn't allow it). And that makes no sense.
I'm going to have to think that Archfiend's Roar is one of those rulings that needs to be updated (there are still quite a few out there).
Type A and B Toons here that can only be Special Summoned do not say have any restrictions on how they can be Special Summoned (except if you are manually doing it from your hand, you must offer tributes). The only requirement is that Toon World be on the field. Since the Last Will / Toon Mermaid ruling is newer, I would give more credence to that ruling over the older one for Archfiend's Roar.
Now the semantic game comes in with "you can Special Summon this monster from your hand" statement. It could mean a) If you manually Special Summon it in the same manner you are Special Summoning a Cyber Dragon or The Fiend Megacyber or b) Anything that allows it to be Special Summoned from your hand including by Card Effects like Destiny Hero - Dasher or A Hero Emerges.
My Speculative Opinion Only here is that it's supposed to mean the first one. The tributes are offered as if you were Normal Summoning a non-toon version of the same monster. I believe that was the intention they had in mind. Otherwise, if Toon World is on the field, an effect from another card should be able to Special Summon any Toon Monster from anywhere else.
Yes an argument can be made the other way too. That's why I said, it's a semantics issue. Of course I could give the standard issue I've received to questions like this before:
"Who bothers to run Toons anyway?"
(Yeah I know, real informative)
Type A and B Toons here that can only be Special Summoned do not say have any restrictions on how they can be Special Summoned (except if you are manually doing it from your hand, you must offer tributes). The only requirement is that Toon World be on the field. Since the Last Will / Toon Mermaid ruling is newer, I would give more credence to that ruling over the older one for Archfiend's Roar.
Now the semantic game comes in with "you can Special Summon this monster from your hand" statement. It could mean a) If you manually Special Summon it in the same manner you are Special Summoning a Cyber Dragon or The Fiend Megacyber or b) Anything that allows it to be Special Summoned from your hand including by Card Effects like Destiny Hero - Dasher or A Hero Emerges.
My Speculative Opinion Only here is that it's supposed to mean the first one. The tributes are offered as if you were Normal Summoning a non-toon version of the same monster. I believe that was the intention they had in mind. Otherwise, if Toon World is on the field, an effect from another card should be able to Special Summon any Toon Monster from anywhere else.
Yes an argument can be made the other way too. That's why I said, it's a semantics issue. Of course I could give the standard issue I've received to questions like this before:
"Who bothers to run Toons anyway?"
(Yeah I know, real informative)
DarkLogicianOfCaos
Eschew Obfuscation
Maruno said:
Short answer: Aqua Spirit
"This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card can only be Special Summoned by removing from play 1 WATER monster in your Graveyard..." Once it is Special Summoned correctly....
By the above reasoning, when I Call or Pre, I should need to RFP another Water.
I know the trouble is that the Toon Monsters, odd ducks that they are, state that "while" instead of "by the effect of" Toon World, else we would not have this discussion. That is where the controversy and confusion come in. So I state that the above ascertion is true, there is a BIG difference between the hand/deck and the RFP/Graveyard, when it comes to Special Summoning the "only" Monsters.
You have it right though! Either Archfiend's Roar is wrong, or you have to treat the Toons like you do the other "only" Monsters. I also agree that it would be marvell upon marvell should we here from UDE on this.
Sorry, Kifoghorn, but that is how I would play it until the HJ prevailing says different. It is always best to check beforehand. Print out the arguments and let him/her decide. Any UDE tournament should have contact info on their tournament site should you need to find out in advance how it will be ruled. Good luck! I'ld love to see a Toon Deck do well!!
Well, yeah, to an extent. But the problem here is that everyone knows it's bad wording.DarkLogicianOfCaos said:
"The initial Special Summon of this card must be from your hand by removing from play 1 WATER monster in your Graveyard."
We all know that's what the text is supposed to mean. The translators are just being arsy about their job.
Comparison to Aqua Spirit is, I think, pointless, because Aqua Spirit and Toons are worded differently. Toons have a restriction, not a command. You can Special Summon a Toon however you want, whenever you want, with the only proviso that you have Toon World active when you do so.
That's the way I see it. I'm pretty sure that officially, you need to Special Summon it from your hand or Deck somehow before Special Summoning it from your Graveyard, because then that would fit all the rulings. I just don't see why this should be the case. There's nothing fundamentally different about the Graveyard to the hand/Deck that would explain this behaviour. We don't even have a BKSS on this.
Of course, if we ignore the rulings (assuming one or more are wrong), and look purely at the text (which, after all, should probably make sense and says what it means since it was a reprint), we see it's a restriction on Special Summons, not a command, so:
This being true, the only ruling that would actually be wrong is the Archfiend's Roar ruling. Get rid of that Toon Summoned Skull mention, and we're all happy.Maruno said: