Light and darkness dragon

E

exiledforcefreak

RIP Jacob KT 2/16/06
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f31/shriek6/yg01/YG01-EN001.jpg

so here we have a card who's negation effect does not fit the description of any effect monster in existance.

A)it negates trap cards so it can't be a trigger effect (because trigger effects are spell speed 1 and spell speed 1 can not be chained to spell speed 2).
B)It can not be multi-trigger because it is mandatory, not optional like multi-trigger effects are supposed to be.

Despite this, it has been ruled that this card is a multi-trigger effect. I guess this makes sense as breaking the chain link rule would be alot worse. But, what I'm wondering is, if LaDD's negation effect is multi trigger, why can't it be activated multiple times in a chain like winged rhinos and strike ninja?

also, someones needs to give me a quick refresher on what it means to negate the activation without negating the effect and without destroying the card being negated(I.E. hero city 2).
 
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What I'm gathering from this effect is similar to Jinzo and trap cards. If a player goes to activate a trap card, Jinzo is negating that activation and as such, the effect. Same with LaDD- if the opponent tries to activate a S/T card or a monster effect, LaDD is negating the activation of that card and resetting the condition that existed PRIOR to the attempted activation. With regard to monsters, it's a Skill Drain, spell cards-Spell Canceller and traps-Jinzo. Essentially negates EVERYTHING!!!
 
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LaDD is basically a temporary Lockdown Force. It can and will negate EVERYTHING. Sure, they will be activated, but they will always be negated as long as LaDD has 500 ATK and DEF to lose. Example:

Player A has a face-down Quick-Play Spell he/she set last turn.

Player B has a face-up LaDD on the field with its full original ATK and DEF.

Player A activates a Spell card from their hand. LaDD chains to negate the effect. Player A chains his/her face-down Quick-Play Spell to LaDD's effect (in this case, something like MST or Chain Strike). LaDD's effect activates again automatically and negates the Quick-Play Spell.

However, keep this in mind:

If LaDD cannot lose 500 ATK and DEF, it will no longer be able to negate anything.

This is what happens. To my knowledge, that's how it would go. So in a sense, it IS like Jinzo, but it also ISN'T like Jinzo. If I had to describe it as anything, it would be like a hybrid between Jinzo and Winged Rhynos.
 
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exiledforcefreak said:
A)it negates trap cards so it can't be a trigger effect (because trigger effects are spell speed 1 and spell speed 1 can not be chained to spell speed 2).

B)It can not be multi-trigger because it is mandatory, not optional like multi-trigger effects are supposed to be.

Despite this, it has been ruled that this card is a multi-trigger effect. I guess this makes sense as breaking the chain link rule would be alot worse. But, what I'm wondering is, if LaDD's negation effect is multi trigger, why can't it be activated multiple times in a chain like winged rhinos and strike ninja?
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I don't recall either one of these criteria for Trigger Effects. Big and Mid Shield Gardna are Trigger Effects that also negate the activation of a Spell Card, whether it's a Spell Speed 2 Spell Card or not. That would naturally make their effect Spell Speed 2 Triggers.

And Multi-Triggers need not be optional. All multi-trigger ever meant was that the effect could be activated during your opponent's turn. Which if it didn't, it would only be negating effects on your turn.

also, someones needs to give me a quick refresher on what it means to negate the activation without negating the effect and without destroying the card being negated(I.E. hero city 2).
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It's the same thing. The card fizzles. It goes to the Graveyard at the end of the chain if it's a Spell/Trap. If it's a Monster, the effect does nothing until it can be activated again (depending on the effect, it might be in the same chain). Are you talking about Skyscraper 2 - Hero City? It's a Field Spell, so if it's already active, it can't be negated by this effect. Only it's initial activation can.
 
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exiledforcefreak said:
...why can't it be activated multiple times in a chain like winged rhinos and strike ninja?
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I believe it was ruled that way to prevent two copies of the card creating an infinite chain: LaDD#1 activates, which activates LaDD#2, which activates LaDD#1, which activates LaDD#2, &c. infinitely. (I know it wouldn't work that way, but it's a simplification to get the point across.)
Machinefreak said:
Player A has a face-down Quick-Play Spell he/she set last turn.

Player B has a face-up LaDD on the field with its full original ATK and DEF.

Player A activates a Spell card from their hand. LaDD chains to negate the effect. Player A chains his/her face-down Quick-Play Spell to LaDD's effect (in this case, something like MST or Chain Strike). LaDD's effect activates again automatically and negates the Quick-Play Spell.
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It can't activate more than once per chain. In that situation, the Quick-Play would go through.
Maruno said:
So you're implying Light and Darkness Dragon's effect is Spell Speed 2? So Counter Trap Cards are immune to its effect, right?
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Looks like it.
Digital Jedi said:
I don't recall either one of these criteria for Trigger Effects. Big and Mid Shield Gardna are Trigger Effects that also negate the activation of a Spell Card, whether it's a Spell Speed 2 Spell Card or not. That would naturally make their effect Spell Speed 2 Triggers.
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I agree, but just a little note: by the rulings Big Shield Gardna activates mid-resolution (apparently like Archfiends).
 
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Maruno said:
So you're implying Light and Darkness Dragon's effect is Spell Speed 2? So Counter Trap Cards are immune to its effect, right?
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correct

Machinefreak]LaDD is basically a temporary Lockdown Force. It can and will negate EVERYTHING.[/quote] see response to Maruno [quote=Digital Jedi said:
Multi-Triggers need not be optional. All multi-trigger ever meant was that the effect could be activated during your opponent's turn. Which if it didn't, it would only be negating effects on your turn.
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I recall there being something on the L3 list saying that a multi-trigger effect is optional. Also, I can't think of any multi-trigger effects other then LaDD that aren't optional.


Digital Jedi said:
It's the same thing. The card fizzles. It goes to the Graveyard at the end of the chain if it's a Spell/Trap. If it's a Monster, the effect does nothing until it can be activated again (depending on the effect, it might be in the same chain).
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so a soul exchange/scapegoat negated by an imperial order is the same thing as a soul exchange/scapegoat negated by a solemn judgement?

Machinefreak said:
I think it's best we end all of this confusion. XP

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Card_Rulings:Light_and_Darkness_Dragon

Hope this answers some questions.
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Yes, I've already read this. Just so everyone knows, what Machinefreak has linked us to are the original Japanese rulings.
 
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Just so everyone knows, this is indeed the very first Mandatory Multi-Triggered Effect.

Yes, it is Spell Speed 2. No it cannot do anything against Counter Traps.
No, it can't do anything against already active Continuous Spell and Trap Effects (truly continuous ones).
No, it can't do anything against monsters with Continuous Effects because they don't activate or use the chain.

And no, it's nothing like "Skill Drain"...lol.
 
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exiledforcefreak said:
I recall there being something on the L3 list saying that a multi-trigger effect is optional. Also, I can't think of any multi-trigger effects other then LaDD that aren't optional.
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As it's not a requirement, I never considered it a part of it's description. It's certainly not how Mutli-Triggers are defined in the rules. Nevertheless, I don't think that will have any impact on any established rulings, if that's what you (and others) were thinking.

Mandatory Multi-Trigger wont make it the very first Spell Speed 3 Monster Effect, either. That just doesn't exist.


so a soul exchange/scapegoat negated by an imperial order is the same thing as a soul exchange/scapegoat negated by a solemn judgement?
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The end results are the same, meaning you don't get the effect and loose any costs associated with it. Only in one case the card gets destroyed and in the other, the negated card just waits for the chain to resolve before going to the Graveyard. This would also be true for any Continuous Cards you tried to activate as well.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Nevertheless, I don't think that will have any impact on any established rulings, if that's what you (and others) were thinking.
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Actually, it does.

Because it's Mandatory, and because its Negating Effect is Spell Speed 2, it will break the rules of chaining. If you control "LaDD" and if you are foolish enough to activate an effect, instead of Priority being automatically passed to your opponent due to the rules of chaining, "LaDD" will automatically insert itself as the next link on the chain attempting to negate that effect. This means you can finally activate an effect and then have another of your effects immediately chained to it before your opponent gets the chance to respond!...yay!...lol.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
The end results are the same, meaning you don't get the effect and loose any costs associated with it. Only in one case the card gets destroyed and in the other, the negated card just waits for the chain to resolve before going to the Graveyard. This would also be true for any Continuous Cards you tried to activate as well.
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If your opponent chains "Magic Jammer" to your "Scapegoat" you may still perform Summons that turn, but if they chain "Imperial Order" you may not perform Summons.
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I got confused, for some reason I had activations and effects mixed up.
 
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See, now this post was prematurely posted...See my next one for what should have come out, but was pre-sent. Sorry about that. But it tacks on nicely to what skey said.
 
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Now, if your LaDD does not have the ATK/DEF to negate, it will still Trigger, (because it must...just like Thestalos when your opponent has no cards intheir hand), use up a spot on the chain and resolve to do nothing. Thus, a "spent" LaDD can protect your first-in-chain cards (or your opponent's) from being Countered.

Ahhh, bet you never thought of that use, did you????
 
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skey23 said:
Actually, it does.

Because it's Mandatory, and because its Negating Effect is Spell Speed 2, it will break the rules of chaining. If you control "LaDD" and if you are foolish enough to activate an effect, instead of Priority being automatically passed to your opponent due to the rules of chaining, "LaDD" will automatically insert itself as the next link on the chain attempting to negate that effect. This means you can finally activate an effect and then have another of your effects immediately chained to it before your opponent gets the chance to respond!...yay!...lol.
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Since it's a Mandatory Effect, is that really breaking any chaning rules? I simply see that as abiding by the rules, only this time, the orientations of the cards and the origins of the effects are different creating a different ladder then we're used to.
 
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