Malfunction question
- Thread starter skey23
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masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
You made the point that you dont see why the Gardna's say they negate and destroy a Spell Card that targets, when by nature of their effect, "Negate" would be enough to send the Spell Card to the Graveyard without needing the "Destroy" part.Tkwiget said:
I simply stated that without the "Destroy", some Spell Cards are Continuous, and they would remain on the field past negation.
Understand?
the trap negated by 'Malfunction' isn't considered to have been "set" this turn, it can be activated again during the same turn as Appropriate.
I never said I didn't see why either of the Gardna don't say "negate and destroy". I never have, so I don't know what you're getting at with that.masterwoo0 said:
Alright, in a scenario where Wall of Revealing Light is activated and then later on Jinzo or Royal Decree become active on the field would negate Wall of Revealing Light. As we well know, Wall of Revealing Light is negated but not destroyed. Thus, it remains on the field.
If you're implying something along those lines then I kinda see what you're getting at. They just don't play much importance in explaining the reason behind not having the word "destroy" in the Gardna card texts.
Also just for clarification, Mid Shield Gardna is the one with the Ignition Effect. Big Shield Gardna doesn't have one because it's a Trigger Effect that will automatically activate when it meets the requirement to activate. I'm not talking about negating a Spell Card that targets it while face down, I'm talking about Big Shield Gardna's second effect when it's attacked while face down. But that's just being nit-picky.
There isn't any proof to support this nor is their any support to prove that the Trap is considered to be re-Set on the field.Cropz said:
Either way, the card is still useful. I'll continue to make the ruling that Trap Cards negated by Malfunction can't activate again during that turn.
Setting cards is the action of placing a card face down in the correct position and card zone on the field.
D.D. Trap Hole v.s. The Shallow Grave vaguly explains this in a way.
Malfunction only does what it says it does, it negates the activation and places the trap back face-down (unless you were using the effect of Makyura or Jetroid but let's not start that discussion again). The trap can be used after the current chain has resolved. Yes, this means that it really only has usefulness against timing traps like only a small list so please don't tell me I forgot others Torrential Tribute, Mirror Force, and in some instances you can save yourself from Blast with Chain or Reinforcements (if they are activated in the Damage Step). Why is that so hard to understand? Goblin Out of the Frying Pan is no more useful than that. These aren't overly powerful cards, just more somewhat situationally useful fodder to fill out the set. Nobody complained about Machine King Prototype needing to work differently or he would be useless. 
I'm not sure why "return it to its original position" is being interpreted as the verb "set". That doesn't make a lot of sense mechanics-wise. The whole point of the card is to screw with timing. Otherwise we're looking at one more free Trap Negator for the turn. Do you really think they would have made it to where you could negate the entire effect for the entire turn, especially when this game is so dependant on getting stuff out early? The card was only meant to mess with timing, and as much as that may not seam like a the greatest thing in the world, neither is Michizure. The majority of Yu-Gi-Oh! Cards are usable, not great. When their great, they get limited.
Let me add to that what's so bad about a card that only messes with Trap Timing? Do you realize that I could make you discard twice for Magic Jammer, make you pay 2000 for Seven Tools of the Bandit, make you miss the timing on Torrential Tribute, Mirror Force, Sakuretsu Armor, Trap Hole, Bottomless Trap Hole, Solemn Judgment, Widespread Ruin and even allow an extra shot at getting around Royal Decree? What's so bad about that?
Tkwiget said:
Wow, that takes quite a leap to get to. In what way does return it to its original position get interpreted as "Set". The Shallow Grave is quite obviously summoning a monster to the field and if that monster is summoned face-down it could be considered Set but that is not at all the same as returned to its original position. So by your logic if I activate Giant Trunade and you negate it with Goblin Out of the Frying Pan am I prevented from activating Giant Trunade again until the next turn? And if not why are they different? Like it was already mentioned Goblin Out of the Frying Pan is only going to be useful most of the time against a set Quick-Play when it is not their turn. It may also screw up their plans if they had to tribute away the cost and don't have it available anymore, I can see the opponent's face when they activate Elemental Burst tribute the four elements needed and then have Goblin Out of the Frying Pan return burst to their hand.
Their isn't any justification for preventing the trap from being used again the same turn. That is going outside of the scope of the card text, and without any rulings to back it up.
Like I said, either way on how the card functions works fine.
anthonyj, Goblin Out of the Frying Pan against Spell Cards played from the hand doesn't prevent those Spell Cards from being activated again. Why? Because your hand constains no field position at all. That's why.
Goblin Out of the Frying Pan will not return Elemental Burst to the player's hand. Elemental Burst is a Trap card.
The fact of the matter of why I think the Trap card negated by Malfunction can't activate for the rest of that turn is how the term "negate" is defined.
Negation doesn't undo an action a player does 100% and consider it to have never happened. That isn't what "negate" means at all. You simply cancel out any further action that the card being negated does and return it to it's original position before it was negated. This isn't undoing the fact that you once activated the card.
Set is a game term that means the action that a player makes or does to place a card face down.
That's just how I see it. I'm usually wrong on these kinds of things anyway. XD
anthonyj, Goblin Out of the Frying Pan against Spell Cards played from the hand doesn't prevent those Spell Cards from being activated again. Why? Because your hand constains no field position at all. That's why.
Goblin Out of the Frying Pan will not return Elemental Burst to the player's hand. Elemental Burst is a Trap card.
The fact of the matter of why I think the Trap card negated by Malfunction can't activate for the rest of that turn is how the term "negate" is defined.
Negation doesn't undo an action a player does 100% and consider it to have never happened. That isn't what "negate" means at all. You simply cancel out any further action that the card being negated does and return it to it's original position before it was negated. This isn't undoing the fact that you once activated the card.
Set is a game term that means the action that a player makes or does to place a card face down.
That's just how I see it. I'm usually wrong on these kinds of things anyway. XD
Tkwiget said:
Oops. Have to pay more attention when I'm giving examples. Sorry.
So I use Bonding - H20 and you negate it with Goblin. That's what I was trying to convey. Also DJ has some other great points with costs and Malfunction. I'm really hoping someone has posted a question to the Judge's List on Malfunction since this is the second thread I can remember about this debate. In my opinion the card text is quite clear, and there is no reason to prevent future activation. That runs parallel with how the sister card Goblin Out of the Frying Pan operates, and seems to have been the intent. But as this game is always surprising us with some idiosyncracy by all means let's see if we can get an Official answer.
magnumcyclonex
Virus!
We need some real proof from the judge's list regarding both cards.
As for Goblin Out of the Frying Pan, I was thinking of Chain Energy.
As for Goblin Out of the Frying Pan, I was thinking of Chain Energy.
Digital Jedi said:
Isn't it said that if a attack is declared and a chain is started and completed, you can begin one completely new chain?
EDIT: I can see it either way really, and I fully agree that it really doesn't have any logic to consider "return to it's original position" = "set". But heck, either way, im not sure if I would really consider using this card anyways .
slither said:
Yes you certainly can. But the attack declaration timing is now passed. So those Mirror Force, Sakuretsu Armor and Widespread Ruin aren't going to be activated.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
Yeah, the first one was on Jetroid vs Malfunction. I was wondering when someone was going to say, "Hey, didnt we already do a multiple page debate on Malfunction recently??!!!"anthonyj said:
Goblin Out of the Frying Pan works a lot differently than Malfunction. Spell cards can be activated from the hand and field. Traps must be set first in order to activate.anthonyj said:
So calling the two cards sisters or parrallel isn't very accurate since they function very differently from one another. As for the cost to activate a Spell or Trap card, it shouldn't matter. You pay costs first before additional cards can be chained to it. We already know that.
Um, yeah, thats what I mean. Even if you can activate it again, your going to have to pay the cost again.Tkwiget said:
I wasn't siting the fact as proof. I was siting the fact as evidence that being able to activate the trap again wouldn't make Malfunction "useless".
Umm, I never said Malfunction is useless. It doesn't really matter from a game play point of view if the trap can activate again or not. It ultimately will have the same impact on the opponent reguardless of how it actually functions.
We can wait until they process us an official answer. I do have the feeling they will rule that the negated trap card can activate again in the turn.
We can wait until they process us an official answer. I do have the feeling they will rule that the negated trap card can activate again in the turn.